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+--- Thread: Derek Jeter (/showthread.php?tid=12008)
- GonzoStyle - 10-05-2006
Good thing I wasn't apologizing, just making sure you know how insignificant your opinion is.
the whole point is all those other guys had teams that crumbled around them and jeter did as well but he carried his team through it and was clutch. A Rod had good numbers but hitting 2 home runs in a 17-3 game means crapola.
- Galt - 10-05-2006
The Yankees did not crumble around anyone. Boo hoo. They lost Matsui and Sheffield. Even without them, they still have a better offense than anyone else in baseball. By a mile.
Damon, Jeter, Abreu, Arod, Giambi. Compare that top 5 (or even don't include Abreu since they only had him the last 2 mos) and it obliterates the top 5 of the Red Sox, White Sox, or Twins. Plus, Cano and Posada who were also healthy all year. So the Yankees had to make due with Williams and Melky when Sheffield and Matsui were out. Williams and Melky were better than the two worst hitters on the Red Sox, White Sox or Twins by a mile.
Jeter carried no one. He wasn't even the best hitter on his own team. The other hitters put up better numbers on worse teams and were worth more to their teams' performance than Jeter. This whole "playoff" thing is overblown.
The Red Sox won 86 games with Ortiz, him singlehandedly winning 6 of them in his last at bat. Hell, they would had difficulty winning 70 without him all year.
Can't you admit that everyone wants him to win because he's pretty?
- GonzoStyle - 10-05-2006
Cano was not healthy all year and remove the first couple months and giambi was shit most of the year.
- Galt - 10-05-2006
If you are attempting to argue that the Yankees offense was better than the Red Sox, White Sox, and Twins offense every single day of the 2006 season, you are a fool.
- GonzoStyle - 10-05-2006
Galt Wrote:If you are attempting to argue that the Yankees offense was better than the Red Sox, White Sox, and Twins offense every single day of the 2006 season, you are a fool.
I agree
- Galt - 10-05-2006
DAMMIT!
- HedCold - 10-05-2006
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its jeter, cause you know hafner isn't winning it
- Galt - 10-05-2006
I disagree with using VORP to determine an MVP. VORP compares players only against those at the same position.
While the fact that Jeter plays at a premium position, should most definitely help him, VORP is skewed too heavily.
MLV on that site is a better guage (though it doesn't factor position at all), it shows how many more runs a player would create for a linup if it consisted of him, and 8 league average hitters.
Jeter is at 43. Dye is at 53. Ortiz is at 61. Hafner is at 68. Vlad is at 48. Morneau is at 44. I can understand if you want to discount Ortiz and Hafner for the fact that they didn't play any offense. But Dye is all over Jeter offensively, and he's a plus defender too.
Jeter wasn't even the highest rated on his own team (Giambi had 45, Arod was around there too).
- HedCold - 10-05-2006
then ortiz should win the hank aaron award
- GonzoStyle - 10-06-2006
Ortiz would be a shoe in for a planet of the apes remake.
- The Jays - 10-06-2006
I think the most ridiculous line I've read in this thread was that Jeter wasn't even the best hitter on his team. He had 214 hits, and batted .344. He's the only one in the top ten of OBP (.417) who bats below the 3 spot in the lineup. He's also had 34 stolen bases, and 39 doubles. He uses all the tools he has in order to get himself in scoring position.
I love how everyone forgets everything before July 31st. Jeter has had just about the same exact average for the entire year. Meanwhile, the rest of the entire team was in fucking flux the whole way through. The Yankees played 4 months of the season before Bobby Abreu came here. During that time, Shef, Matsui, Cano, Posada, Cairo, Giambi, Crosby, Sturtz, Dotel, Rivera, and Farnsworth went on the DL for a significant time. The only players who've basically been ok all year long are Jeter and Melky. I can't even say Arod, because apparently, he had an injury that he never told anyone about. In fact, here's a general history of the Yankee injuries all season.
Quote:P Randy Johnson (from Sep 25, 2006): Herniated disc (day-to-day)
P Mike Mussina (from Sep 23, 2006): Bruised left thumb (day-to-day)
P Cory Lidle (from Sep 18, 2006): Tendinitis in right index finger (day-to-day)
P Cory Lidle (from Sep 18, 2006): Tendinitis in right index finger (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Sep 18, 2006): Small ligament tear, left wrist (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Sep 18, 2006): Small ligament tear, left wrist (day-to-day)
Jorge Posada (from Sep 14, 2006): Bruised left elbow (day-to-day)
C Jorge Posada (from Sep 14, 2006): Bruised left elbow (day-to-day)
Alex Rodriguez (from Sep 8, 2006): Illness (day-to-day)
3B Alex Rodriguez (from Sep 8, 2006): Illness (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Sep 8, 2006): Sore left hand (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Sep 8, 2006): Sore left hand (day-to-day)
Bobby Abreu (from Sep 2, 2006): Left game - Shin (day-to-day)
RF Bobby Abreu (from Sep 2, 2006): Left game - Shin (day-to-day)
RF Bobby Abreu (from Sep 2, 2006): Left game - Shin (day-to-day)
Mariano Rivera (from Aug 31, 2006): Muscle strain near right elbow (day-to-day)
P Mariano Rivera (from Aug 31, 2006): Muscle strain near right elbow (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Aug 25, 2006): Left game - Dehydration/Cramping (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Aug 25, 2006): Left game - Dehydration/Cramping (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Aug 21, 2006): Left game - left hamstring tightness (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Aug 21, 2006): Left game - left hamstring tightness (day-to-day)
P Mike Mussina (from Aug 20, 2006): Groin (on 15-day DL)
P Mike Mussina (from Aug 19, 2006): Left game - muscle tightness in groin (day-to-day)
Kyle Farnsworth (from Aug 17, 2006): Left game 8/18 - Bruised right calf (day-to-day)
P Kyle Farnsworth (from Aug 17, 2006): Left game 8/18 - Bruised right calf (day-to-day)
Andy Phillips (from Aug 17, 2006): Strained left rib cage muscle (on 15-day DL)
1B Andy Phillips (from Aug 17, 2006): Strained left rib cage muscle (on 15-day DL)
Johnny Damon (from Aug 8, 2006): Right groin stiffness (day-to-day)
CF Johnny Damon (from Aug 8, 2006): Right groin stiffness (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Aug 8, 2006): Swollen right elbow (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Aug 8, 2006): Swollen right elbow (day-to-day)
2B Miguel Cairo (from Aug 5, 2006): Strained left hamstring (on 15-day DL)
2B Miguel Cairo (from Aug 4, 2006): Left game 8/5 - strained left hamstring (day-to-day)
Kyle Farnsworth (from Jul 25, 2006): Stiff back (day-to-day)
P Kyle Farnsworth (from Jul 25, 2006): Stiff back (day-to-day)
Johnny Damon (from Jul 23, 2006): Stiff back (day-to-day)
CF Johnny Damon (from Jul 23, 2006): Stiff back (day-to-day)
Jorge Posada (from Jul 18, 2006): Bruised finger (day-to-day)
C Jorge Posada (from Jul 18, 2006): Bruised finger (day-to-day)
Alex Rodriguez (from Jul 17, 2006): Bruised left foot (day-to-day)
3B Alex Rodriguez (from Jul 17, 2006): Bruised left foot (day-to-day)
Johnny Damon (from Jul 14, 2006): Leg cramps (day-to-day)
CF Johnny Damon (from Jul 14, 2006): Leg cramps (day-to-day)
Johnny Damon (from Jul 5, 2006): Sore side muscle (day-to-day)
CF Johnny Damon (from Jul 5, 2006): Sore side muscle (day-to-day)
Robinson Cano (from Jun 25, 2006): Strained left hamstring (on 15-day DL)
2B Robinson Cano (from Jun 25, 2006): Strained left hamstring (on 15-day DL)
Robinson Cano (from Jun 24, 2006): Left game - hamstring injury (day-to-day)
2B Robinson Cano (from Jun 24, 2006): Left game - hamstring injury (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Jun 24, 2006): Back stiffness (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Jun 24, 2006): Back stiffness (day-to-day)
Derek Jeter (from Jun 4, 2006): Bruised right thumb (day-to-day)
SS Derek Jeter (from Jun 4, 2006): Bruised right thumb (day-to-day)
Jason Giambi (from Jun 4, 2006): Viral stomach disorder (day-to-day)
1B Jason Giambi (from Jun 4, 2006): Viral stomach disorder (day-to-day)
Alex Rodriguez (from Jun 1, 2006): Stomach disorder (day-to-day)
3B Alex Rodriguez (from Jun 1, 2006): Stomach disorder (day-to-day)
P Darrell Rasner (from Jun 1, 2006): Right shoulder tendinitis (on 60-day DL)
Mariano Rivera (from May 31, 2006): Back spasms (day-to-day)
P Mariano Rivera (from May 31, 2006): Back spasms (day-to-day)
Gary Sheffield (from May 31, 2006): Torn ligament in wrist (on 15-day DL)
RF Gary Sheffield (from May 31, 2006): Torn ligament in wrist (on 15-day DL)
Gary Sheffield (from May 30, 2006): Re-aggravated sore left wrist (day-to-day)
RF Gary Sheffield (from May 30, 2006): Re-aggravated sore left wrist (day-to-day)
Gary Sheffield (from May 29, 2006): Left wrist surgery - out 10-12 weeks (on 15-day DL)
RF Gary Sheffield (from May 29, 2006): Left wrist surgery - out 10-12 weeks (on 15-day DL)
Derek Jeter (from May 28, 2006): Left game - sprained right hand (day-to-day)
SS Derek Jeter (from May 28, 2006): Left game - sprained right hand (day-to-day)
Jorge Posada (from May 24, 2006): Strained tendon, left knee (day-to-day)
C Jorge Posada (from May 24, 2006): Strained tendon, left knee (day-to-day)
P Shawn Chacon (from May 18, 2006): Knee bruise (day-to-day)
P Shawn Chacon (from May 18, 2006): Knee bruise (day-to-day)
CF Bubba Crosby (from May 18, 2006): Strained right hamstring (on 15-day DL)
CF Bubba Crosby (from May 17, 2006): Strained right hamstring (day-to-day)
P Shawn Chacon (from May 16, 2006): Left leg hematoma (on 15-day DL)
P Shawn Chacon (from May 16, 2006): Left leg hematoma (on 15-day DL)
P Tanyon Sturtze (from May 13, 2006): Right shoulder tendinitis (on 60-day DL)
P Tanyon Sturtze (from May 12, 2006): Right shoulder soreness (on 15-day DL)
P Tanyon Sturtze (from May 11, 2006): Right shoulder soreness (on 15-day DL)
Hideki Matsui (from May 11, 2006): Broken left wrist - out 3-4 months (on 15-day DL)
LF Hideki Matsui (from May 11, 2006): Broken left wrist - out 3-4 months (on 15-day DL)
Gary Sheffield (from May 5, 2006): Left wrist contusion (on 15-day DL)
RF Gary Sheffield (from May 5, 2006): Left wrist contusion (on 15-day DL)
Gary Sheffield (from Apr 28, 2006): Left wrist contusion (day-to-day)
RF Gary Sheffield (from Apr 28, 2006): Left wrist contusion (day-to-day)
P Carl Pavano (from Mar 28, 2006): Back strain, bone chips in right elbow (on 60-day DL)
P Carl Pavano (from Mar 27, 2006): Back strain (on 15-day DL)
P Octavio Dotel (from Mar 23, 2006): Recovery from right elbow surgery (on 15-day DL)
P Aaron Small (from Mar 23, 2006): Right hamstring strain (on 15-day DL)
This is a team which does not win on pitching, like the Tigers or Twins did. This team is built on pure offense to make up for the old pitching, and when Matsui and Shef went down, you could see glee in Mets and Red Sox fans faces, and sweat pouring down Yanks fans faces. Then, it was like a joke when everyone seemed to start going down. The only one who stayed consistant, and got in the middle of every rally was Jeter, and every hit he got helped the team win their games. If Jeter's not on this team, you basically have the White Sox offense, except with worse pitching.
- Galt - 10-06-2006
So me not watching Yankee games prevents me from offering an unbiased opinion? And you ONLY watching Yankee games? That validates your opinion for Jeter over everyone else?
When Sheffield and Matsui went down the Yankees still had Damon, Jeter, Giambi, and Arod for fuck's sake. Still the best lineup in baseball
Why are you people making it seem like Jeter was doing what Barry Bonds was doing for the last 5 years in San Francisco - single handedly putting his team in contention?
Jeter was not the best hitter on the Yankees. Both Arod and Giambi are and were better. Batting everage is a stat from the 80s, it's pointless. Both had higher OPS, power, and run production
Jeter was the only guy who hit above the #3 spot in the top 10 of OBP? So what? That is a completely worthless stat, clearly brought up to seemingly pad his MVP credentials. He was also the only SS, the only guy who wore #2, and was half white.
Who cares about stolen bases? They are a fantasy category. Their only value is in increasing the amount of runs a player scores - can't give him credit for both steals and runs.
If Jeter's not on the Yankees, they have the White Sox offense. OK,. fine. Well where are the Red Sox without Ortiz? The A's without Thomas? How can you possibly say Jeter was worth more to his team than either of those two players?
And if you argue that
a) The guy has to make the playoffs so it can't be Dye or Hafner or Ortiz
b) The guy has to play defense, so it can't be Ortiz or Hafner ot Thomas
c) Not only does defense matter, but the quality of defense matters (and you think Jeter is good) thereby further distancing Jeter from the DHs and even Morneau, who's only average
d) can't be a pitcher, since they have the Cy Young, therefore eliminating Santana
e) it's not just home runs that win the award, but average, leadership, defense, the whole package
...
....
....
Well, then you are voting for Joe Mauer.
Better hitter than Jeter (higher OBP and SLG), in a worse lineup, plays a more premium position, plays it exceptionally well, and was one of only two actual hitters on the Twins.
If your argument is "well, I just want a Yankee to win", well then, sure give it to Jeter.
Honestly, Jeter is not in the top 5 in MVP voting in my mind
Will all you Yankee fans just admit that this bogus MVP will be a lifetime achievement award and be done with it?
At least, last year the Arod-Ortiz debate had merit. Arod's numbers were stunning, just not as good as Ortoz's. The debate therefore was "what is the value of fielding?" OK. Valid argument. Clearly people are going to be biased, but there's no debate that Arod put up at worst, the second best season in the AL last year.
But this Jeter campaign is just laughable. No matter what the argument, Jeter's not first.
- GonzoStyle - 10-06-2006
in your opinion
- Galt - 10-06-2006
If you agree with me, you are a fool.
- The Jays - 10-06-2006
Batting average is a stat for the 80's? Fine. How about batting average with runners in scoring position?
[url]<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=batting&league_filter">http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/m ... gue_filter</a><!-- m -->[0]=1&orderBy=rc&direction=DESC&page=1[/url]
Jeter is second to Michael Young, and beats the next possible MVP canidates by more than 20 points. And how do you put a number on run production? With the number of runs a player bats in, or the runs a player creates?
[url]<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=batting&league_filter">http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/m ... gue_filter</a><!-- m -->[0]=1&orderBy=rc&direction=DESC&page=1[/url]
Because Jeter then beats your boy Ortiz by 12.
All the players you mention bat above the 3 hole, which will pad their rbi production. Jeter bats second, and had 97 rbi this year.
Ortiz isn't even the most valuable player on the Sox, because he wouldn't see the pitches he gets without Manny batting behind him.
- GonzoStyle - 10-06-2006
clutch
- Goatweed - 10-06-2006
GonzoStyle Wrote:clutch
agreed
- Topper Harley - 10-06-2006
The Jays Wrote:Ortiz isn't even the most valuable player on the Sox, because he wouldn't see the pitches he gets without Manny batting behind him.
That's a dumb statement. you put someone like Manny behind him so you ensure that your best player gets as many at bats as possible.
- Galt - 10-06-2006
yeah, that statement is foolish. The most valuable is the one batting behind the best hitter because otherwise the most best hitter wouldn't have any pitches to hit?
So does that mean that instead of looking at Ortiz, Thomas, Dye, Jeter, and Mauer people should really be voting for those who hit behind them?
Foolish.
And poor Derek Jeter, he had to hit 2nd. There was never anyone on base for him. Damon and Cano suck.
MVP.
1. Frank Thomas
2. Joe Mauer
3. Jermaine Dye
4. David Ortiz
5. Derek Jeter
- GonzoStyle - 10-06-2006
There's always some wacko who votes for the least likely guy, thats you. Just to validate to themselves that they aren't like everyone else.
Yet the world goes on, jeter will be MVP and your opinion will be useless, things never change.