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+--- Thread: why the yanks wont win (/showthread.php?tid=9892)
- GonzoStyle - 01-25-2005
thats like saying someones a good shortstop except he cant turn the double play well.
- Keyser Soze - 01-25-2005
name 4 catchers you would rather have had on your team ahead of piazza over the length of his career.
- HedCold - 01-25-2005
how many times have people left a met game saying "damn they would have won if piazza just threw out that basestealer!"
- HollywoodJewMoses - 01-25-2005
about 17 times.
- GonzoStyle - 01-25-2005
Keyser Soze Wrote:name 4 catchers you would rather have had on your team ahead of piazza over the length of his career.all time or current?
- Arpikarhu - 01-25-2005
Keyser Soze Wrote:name 4 catchers you would rather have had on your team ahead of piazza over the length of his career.Bench
Berra
Campanella
Howard
- Keyser Soze - 01-25-2005
current. my point is that piazza was the best catcher in the league nearly his entire career. piazza was a better hitter than all the players arpi mentioned. who give a fuck if they threw out a couple more runners, Piazza is head and shoulders better than all of them, except for Yogi who was a pretty strong offensive catcher as well.
- Arpikarhu - 01-25-2005
in my opinion, the catchers most important jobs are handling the pitchers and keeping runners close to first to assist the pitching game. piazza sucks at both. a good hitting catcher is just a bonus.
- Galt - 01-25-2005
Arod wasn't a real shortstop? He was one of the best defensive shortstops as well as being one of the best hitters in baseball?
Of course, now he'll never be in the discussion of the all-time great shortstops becuase he's going to play his last 10 years at 3B
- Keyser Soze - 01-25-2005
piazza has won far more games with his bat than he has lost with his glove.
- Galt - 01-25-2005
Looking at the whole of their career both offensively and deffensively, the only catcher who holds a candle to Piazza (and is better in my opinion) is Ivan Rodriguez.
Arpi saying that Piazza's not in the top 10 means he'd be including Gary Carter and Posada based on his "rah rah rah for the home team" rather than actual baseball knowledge. Piazza was also better than Fisk
- GonzoStyle - 01-25-2005
Galt Wrote:Arod wasn't a real shortstop? He was one of the best defensive shortstops as well as being one of the best hitters in baseball?What I said was that he was not a true short stop but he played his position with the best of them, he is not your prototypical short stop though. He'll still be mentioned with the other short stops even if he plays 3rd for the rest of his career.
Of course, now he'll never be in the discussion of the all-time great shortstops becuase he's going to play his last 10 years at 3B
- Galt - 01-25-2005
Cal Ripken is the same size as Arod.
Jeter's like 6'2". Sure, he's not Ozzie Smith, but all athletes are bigger now than they used to be.
- Arpikarhu - 01-25-2005
Galt Wrote:Looking at the whole of their career both offensively and deffensively, the only catcher who holds a candle to Piazza (and is better in my opinion) is Ivan Rodriguez.i would not include posada or carter. fisk was better than piazza. piazza is a shitty catcher. he is a DH who happens to sit behind the plate.
Arpi saying that Piazza's not in the top 10 means he'd be including Gary Carter and Posada based on his "rah rah rah for the home team" rather than actual baseball knowledge. Piazza was also better than Fisk
- Keyser Soze - 01-25-2005
Piazza gets more heat than he deserves as a catcher when he came up he had his troubles to be sure, but while his arm remains average his glovework behind the plate is adequate. No he's not Bench or Rodriguez back there, but he is serviceable and does not hurt his team back there.
He ranks 39th on the Career highest batting averages. He was having high avgs before 1998 when the pitching really went bad with the expansion. That is one of the things that convinces me that he would have put up numbers like this in others eras. According to BP, Piazza is first all-time among catchers in Equivalent Average (EqA) at .325 No one else is even at .310
- Sir O - 01-25-2005
Over his career, Piazza has a FP of .989 (league FP .990). That's not shitty, that's average.
His career RFg is 7.23 compared to a league RFg of 6.32. Pretty impressive.
Carlton Fisk: .988 5.58
Johnny Bench: .990 5.80
Yogi Berra: .989 5.61
Roy Campanella: .988 5.98
Elston Howard: .993 6.09
Mike Piazza: .989 7.23
As for how Piazza handles his pitchers, check this:
Team ERA with Piazza catching vs. overall Team ERA
2004: Piazza 3.99, Mets 4.09
2003: Piazza 3.97, Mets 4.48
2002: Piazza 3.84, Mets 3.89
2001: Piazza 4.05, Mets 4.07
2000: Piazza 3.87, Mets 4.16
1999: Piazza 4.40, Mets 4.27
1998: Piazza 3.91, Mets 3.77 (Mets only)
1997: Piazza 3.50, Dodgers 3.63
1996: Piazza 3.31, Dodgers 3.48
1995: Piazza 3.66, Dodgers 3.66
1994: Piazza 3.93, Dodgers 4.23
1993: Piazza 3.42, Dodgers 3.50
So in 12 seasons, pitchers have a lower ERA with Piazza behind the plate in nine, one is dead even, and two are higher. Clearly, pitchers tend to pitch better with Piazza behind the plate.
And where do pitching staffs tend to rank against other teams with Piazza catching?
Dodgers
Year - ERA Rank
1993 - 3
1994 - 9
1995 - 2
1996 - 1
1997 - 2
Traded to Florida then Mets early in season
Mets
1998 - 4 (Dodgers dropped to 5th)
1999 - 5
2000 - 3
2001 - 5
2002 - 5
2003 - 10 (only played 68 games)
2004 - 7 (only played 50 games as catcher)
So, every year except one that Piazza has played 100+ games as catcher, his team's ERA is among the top 5 in the league. The two seasons he played under 1/2 the teams games in NY the team dropped from 5th to 10th and 7th in ERA.
Conclusion: Over the course of his career, aside from the one obvious weakness, Mike Piazza has been overall solid defensively. Pitchers pitch well when Piazza is calling the game. While the last few years have seen age take its toll and his defense has suffered for it, to say he has always been a poor defensive catcher is a statement unsupported by facts.
Edited By Sir O on 1106697409
- Arpikarhu - 01-25-2005
your mountain of evidence has convinced me.
- fbd - 01-25-2005
damn
- The Sleeper - 01-25-2005
damn, i was about to make the same post as Sir O!
- Arpikarhu - 01-26-2005
you couldnt carry his jock