Allow an old man to vent for a minute - The ramblings of a patriotic old fart.

Galt · 07-01-2002, 11:06 PM

If the patriotism is starting to fade, does that mean my long-standing hatred of all things foreign won't be en vogue anymore?

Gooch · 07-01-2002, 11:15 PM

Quote:Gooch brings up an interesting arguement though.

Is it the past generation's fault that they raised us this way or are we just a product of our times?

there is blame enough to go around...but my point is to not be quick to blame that young generation. That older generation has become fat and complacent...and their children have become much of the same. We sit, for the most part, like sheep feeding from the corporate troughs. The younger generations, born of those 60's ideals, whatever side they fell on, has created children who have no identity but the ones they spend money on. Can we blame the wartime economic system, which gave corporations an easy avenue into our homes, or the businesses boom, which gave us much gravy to put on our steaks? How can we...when we never respect nor understand that once upon a time there wasn't a slab of meat to be found. Where people had to fight to live, fight for their children. But, therein lies another change...there was an enemy. Always an enemy. Now we can't seem to find that enemy, and his invisible army continues, even if it was bruised up a bit. How can a generation who's vices are in quick, spoon-fed amounts, grasp this with the proper horror and respect? There is no instant gratification. But are they affected. OH, THEY ARE SHAKING IN THEY'RE BOOTS...but they are in denial. They have become cold, aloof, and have run back to their support-structure of vices, hoping it all goes away. Don't think for a minute that anyone around us is unaffected. They all are. Their reactions, our reactions, my reaction, is to be in some awkward limbo, trying to do the same things as befoe, but tasting the uncertainity, unease, and reality of these unsure times.

Brokenjaw · 07-01-2002, 11:51 PM

Quote:there is blame enough to go around...but my point is to not be quick to blame that young generation. That older generation has become fat and complacent...and their children have become much of the same. We sit, for the most part, like sheep
feeding from the corporate troughs. The younger generations, born of those 60's ideals, whatever side they fell on, has created children who have no identity but the ones they spend money on. Can we blame the wartime economic system, which gave corporations an easy avenue into our homes, or the businesses boom, which gave us much gravy to put on our steaks? How can we...when we never respect nor understand that once upon a time there wasn't a slab of meat to be found. Where people had to fight to live, fight for their children. But, therein lies another change...there was an enemy. Always an enemy. Now we can't seem to find that enemy, and his invisible army continues, even if it was bruised up a bit. How can a generation who's vices are in quick, spoon-fed amounts, grasp this with the proper horror and respect? There is no instant gratification. But are they affected. OH, THEY ARE SHAKING IN THEY'RE BOOTS...but they are in denial. They have become cold, aloof, and have run back to their support-structure of vices, hoping it all goes away. Don't think for a minute that anyone around us is unaffected. They all are. Their reactions, our reactions, my reaction, is to be in some awkward limbo, trying to do the same things as befoe, but tasting the uncertainity, unease, and reality of these unsure times.

Is it me, or does gooch talk about eating and food alot? :-p :rofl: :firebounce:

Edited By Brokenjaw on July 01 2002 at 7:51

Sean Cold · 07-02-2002, 12:03 AM

I interrupt this thread for a breaking, cutting, some what witty comment.

I don't want to, i really don't, but it's there.

Good Eye, bj.

I now return you to our regularly scheduled thread already in progress.

Maynard · 07-02-2002, 12:04 AM

I bow to your greatness Sean. :bow:

Two birds with one stone.

Brokenjaw · 07-02-2002, 12:07 AM

Sean Cold steps into the box...
Heres the wind up and the pitch...
Its a long fly ball deep to left...
Going
Going
GONE!!!

I bet Brokenjaws wants that pitch back. :rofl:

Edited By Brokenjaw on July 01 2002 at 8:08

GonzoStyle · 07-02-2002, 05:55 AM

Quote:OK, flame away. Tell me I’m wrong.

Old man I would... only if I could, but I can't cause I couldn't find a damn thing wrong with your post.

Bravo to you good sir, I told a few people who got pissy with me the days following 9/11 that this would happen.

I equated it to the bandwagon jumpers when the rangers won the cup in 1994. I am in no way equating a catastrophy with a sport, just an example...

I was a Ranger fan and still am even though I don't like Hockey much. In 1996 I remember all my friends bashing the rangers and throwing out their shirts, jersey's, and banners. They made fun of me for still wearing my Leetch jersey but I'm a fan. You don't just jump on and off, you either are a fan or a bandwagon jumper.

The yankee fans just haven't had a chance yet but a couple years of not making it to the series and watch all the yankee "fans" start talking shit. Even after last year people were talking shit in the offseason... yeah the yanks are garbage. Cause the lost the series in game 7, bottom of the 9th, with an out on a bloop single. Yeah they suck, sure.

Talk about how the taxes suck, health care sucks, this sucks, etc. But find me a country you'd rather live in and then pack up and move your ass there. My parents weren't born here and I am forever greatful that they moved to america. I couldn't picture living in modern Russia or growing up in communist russia, especially. We have all the opportunities in the world here, be greatful for them.

Don't know about your history? Well don't wait to be taught go out and learn for yourself. You won't ever learn the truth anyway unless you research for yourself.

Were our forefathers perfect? Nope. But their sacrafices and dreams even exceeded their greatest expectations.

I do agree with the ruling in removing the line from the pledge of allegiance though. but that's just my opinion, religion like love of country should be realized personally, not forced upon you.

The Painter · 07-02-2002, 10:11 AM

Quote:Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I don't understand how saying the word "God" picks out a official religion of the US. It all goes back to England. If you weren't a member of the Church of England, you were in trouble(look at Ireland). So there will never be a Church of the US, or the official religion is (fill in the blank) . We've had Presidents of different religions, and that's been fine. hell, Nixon was a Quaker, they're not allowed to say the pledge of allegiance. Every religion has a God or gods. How does saying the word God pick out one as official? If you don't want to say it, than don't, that simple. Years ago the Supreme Court ruled that saying the Pledge of Allegiance is optional, you don't have to say it. However, it is a law that you must stand during it.

Edited By The Painter on July 02 2002 at 06:12

AdolescentMasturbator · 07-02-2002, 04:41 PM

Not every religion has a God or Gods. And the establishment clause just doesn't apply to the establishment of 1 official religion it applies to religion in general.

OAS · 07-02-2002, 07:10 PM

Some interesting commentary in this thread. It seems as if a nerve was struck. That is all one could ask.

Don’t become complacent. Don’t take all the government says or does as the gospel. I never suggested you should. This nation of ours is still young. Notice I said ours. It belongs to each and every one of us. It is each citizens responsibility to make it work. To defend the ideals on which it was founded. To make it a better place for all Americans, regardless of the color of their skin, their religious beliefs or lack of them, their sexual preferences, or their nation of origin. People born in other lands that come here to become Americans are as American to me as those who are born here. For one to pick up and move, leaving all that has been their life to come here to be free, gets all of my respect and support. Remember, we are nation founded by people with that same dream.

Some of you have asked if it is your parents fault that your generation is complacent. Suck it up and take the blame for it yourselves. It’s not your parents fault. Your parents were children of the sixties. There was no time in modern history where the people of this country had their voice heard as loud and as effective as the sixties. No time was more driven towards change by the voice of the people than the sixties and seventies. I challenge my children all the time, if they don’t like what Washington is doing, let them hear about it. And if you accept the excuse that one voice doesn’t make a difference, then you just don’t get it.

If you have never done it, learn about the history of this country. As someone else mentioned, don’t wait for someone to teach you, learn about it yourself. Understand the sacrifices that have been made. Learn about our great years so that we can build on it. Learn about our dark years, so that we may never repeat them. Read the Constitution of these United States. Understand it, defend it, fight for what’s right within it.

Think of the power of the words “Give me liberty or give me death” or “Don’t tread on me” or even “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”. They were said a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away (reference inserted for Ikea’s enjoyment). But that feeling should still be in our hearts today. It is so sad that the feelings of post 9/11 have subsided in so many. That mentality, that frame of mind, if never changed, will doom the most powerful and free nation on earth.

And Kid, buy a fucking flag and fly it proudly you worthless suversive fuck. :rofl:

Enjoy the birthday of your nation. The birth of freedom!

The Painter · 07-02-2002, 10:58 PM

AM: What religions don't have a God or gods? Don't tell me atheists or nillists, they are not religions.

Quote:And the establishment clause just doesn't apply to the establishment of 1 official religion it applies to religion in general.

I think you're reading into it what you want it to say. I think it's pretty straight foward. No law. No official religion.

OAS: nicely said.

Galt · 07-02-2002, 11:17 PM

I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses worship any being, and they definately don't pledge to a flag. It's a wacky religion.

Again, AM is right. I read into it that it's not about a specific religion they are talking.

The Painter · 07-02-2002, 11:41 PM

Jehovahs worship God. I guess you never had them knock on your door.

If you don't think it's about not making a specific religion the official religion of the country, than what exactly do you think it's about?

Galt · 07-02-2002, 11:59 PM

Religion. Not a specific religion, just religion. Government should not sponsor or force religion on people. And the word "God" is religious, no matter how all-encompasing it may be.

Kingpin · 07-03-2002, 01:14 AM

OAS, God Bless your sorry old ass, I am with you 1000000%. As per the "One Nation under God" in the pledge. This country was founded because people were escaping from religous persecution. Thats where it all comes from. If it bothers you to have that under God thing, hand all of your money that says In God We Trust. I am sure I could put it to good use!!!

AdolescentMasturbator · 07-03-2002, 01:20 AM

Quote:AM: What religions don't have a God or gods? Don't tell me atheists or nillists, they are not religions.

Certain sects of Buddhism do not have a supreme being(note I said certain some elevate Buddha to God-level status), as well as other religions. And why would you even consider Nihilism a religion? Nihilism is a philosophy and I have never heard anyone accuse it of being a religion. Atheism on the other hand is often accused of being a religion yet it clearly is not.

Quote:I think you're reading into it what you want it to say. I think it's pretty straight foward. No law. No official religion.

Ok so if the pledge said, "one nation under god who is great and merciful and punishes the wicked of the earth yet is completely non-denominational" would it be ok? It doesn't promote one specific religion? Yet it is unconstitutional.

The Painter · 07-03-2002, 08:30 AM

Quote:And why would you even consider Nihilism a religion?

Because Nothing is sacred.:bow:

What about laws based on the Ten Comandments? Should they be done away with also?

AdolescentMasturbator · 07-03-2002, 09:39 AM

No because a law that says you can't murder someone is beneficial to a secular society.

Now if the law on the books said, "killing is illegal because the Lord said so to Moses and nothing the lord almighty despises more than wicked heathens who kill his christian children." Then maybe there would be a point.

GonzoStyle · 07-03-2002, 01:02 PM

The ten commandments are the basic building block for law in any society. Its not as much as its religious value but moral value and common sense. It's not the fear of god, it's the knowlege of right and wrong. Killing, stealing, obeying your parents, etc.

But what if one does not believe in god? Why must religion or religious meanings be shoved into everything having to do with love and loyalty? I for one believe but not in the biblical sense. I do not believe GOD created the stars moon, sky, and earth in a week and that he created man the same time, etc.

I equate my belief to something Elvis once said. He was asked why he wears a crucifix and a star of david. He replied because if heaven exists I do not want to be left out on a technicality. I believe in what is in my heart to be right and wrong and do my best. Which is what we can ask of anyone. Why can't it be one loving nation or loyal nation, why under god?

OAS · 07-03-2002, 01:21 PM

Because we are a nation originaly settled and founded on Christian principles, the religious eliments always will try to influence our laws. It is our job to be vigilant citizens to ensure that seperation of church and state is upheld. Think of life in this country if Jerry Fallwell went unchecked.

The recent issue of "under God" is an excellent example of what's right about our country. I am a Christian. I have no problem with the word God in the pledge. I love the reference of God bless America. I hope he does bless us forever.

However, the suit about "under God" was brought by an atheist. An American with no belief of a higher being. He felt that the values he taught his daughter were being contradicted by using the God reference within the pledge. He filed suit, challenging our government to uphold the constitution. He did it quietly, respectfully and legaly. He is a proud American that challenged his government to uphold the constitution. Whether you agree with his opinion or not based on your religious viewpoints, like all of us, he had a right to be heard and he was.