Allow an old man to vent for a minute - The ramblings of a patriotic old fart.

[OAS]

Please allow the old man a rant and rave here for a moment. Allow me to seize the opportunity to make a statement in advance of our nations 226th birthday. In a way this is depressing because it is showing off my age, but I have to get this off my chest. Seeing as many accuse us here of not having any spirited discussions, let’s have it.

You children are pissing me off! I can’t believe the disrespect that I’m hearing here about love of country. It’s ironic that I can go back to the 9/11 threads on oa.com and read the outpouring of fear and patriotism many of you wrote during those days. Patriotism shouldn’t be a trend that you jump on the bandwagon for because of a recent event.

The interesting posts of 9/11 were the fear posts. You should have been fearful. Your fear was for your immediate safety. But underlying in that fear was your nation was under attack. The freedoms you enjoy, the ideals of which this nation was founded, were being assaulted. A silent, hidden enemy was attacking the very foundation of everything you have enjoyed all of your lives. And they were attacking you, simply and only because you are American. An America that stands for and protects the ideals of freedom everywhere. Whether you agree with our foreign policy or not, the basis of everything we do around the world is to defend a persons right for freedom. FREEDOM say it over and over again. FREE FUCKING DOM!. We all have it, others would die trying to experience it. Thousands have died and will continue to die to defend it.

I will give you your arguments about why you were expected to say the pledge because they were just meaningless words to you. But what stopped you from learning the meaning? And I agree with the principal that the government was probably wrong in adding the words “under God” in 1954, but that shouldn’t lessen the oath and allegiance to the country defending the principals it stand for.

I have lived through the Cuban missile crisis, where we were ready to destroy the world before we would give into communism, regardless of how ludicrous that sounds, we couldn’t back down. I lived through the Vietnam era and served in the military during that time. I never had to make up anything to a Vietnam vet because I never looked down on them. Their nation called and they served. To me, there was never anything wrong in what they did. I served in covert missions that to this day I cannot openly discuss, because it was the right thing to do when I was called on to do it. I have taken the life of others in those missions, to defend freedom. Maybe it is because I have looked an enemy in the eye knowing the last thing he saw was an American defending our principals that make me feel this way, and maybe it is because I’m becoming that crazy patriotic old man that you youngsters laugh at.

OK, flame away. Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me to shut up. Someday it may make sense to you. Thanks for letting me vent. God bless America!

And yes I respect your right to disagree and voice a negative opinion about the country. Doesn’t mean I don’t get pissed about it. Carry on!

[Sean Cold]

I also remember that spic Teq saying it was funny, ahhhh, the good old days.

Vent away, old man, wouldn't want you to let it eat away at your faulty nervous system or anything. I am still pissed some shitneck stole the fuckin flag off my damned car.

[Galt]

America rules!

But that has nothing to do with inflicting religious icons on people who don't believe in it, or forcing kids to do things that conflict with their religion.

Both sides of the separation of church and state are violated here.

PS..

I have taken the life of others in those missions

OAS = American Badass.

I'm as patriotic as most, but I don't agree with forcing others to make any pledge. The symbol is insificant as long as what it stands for is respected.



Edited By Galt on July 01 2002 at 2:20

[Arthur Dent]

I'm old enough to remember the day the Berlin Wall was torn down and seeing it happen live on tv. I can stilll remember walking past the German resteraunt down the block from me with all the reporters there interviewing the German immigrants who were havnig a huge party to celebrate the liberation of East Germany. All thanks to Ronald Reagan forcing the Soviet Union into an arms race they couldn't afford to pay for (well, that and losing the war in Afghanistan the year before). One of those proud moments where we could say the U.S. caused that!

[IkeaBoy]

Did I do something bad today? I like the country but that doesn't mean I need to keep saying how much I like it and the fact that I can criticize it and not care much about saying "America Rules" to a flag shows why I do like this country- the fact that I CAN do it.

And I know patriotism shouldn't be a fad but IT WAS. After 9/11 Patriotism WAS something done for awhile and then it slowly was forgotten, as much as it's "bad" it's true.

[AdolescentMasturbator]

I think a major problem is that kids are brought up to believe George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, etc. where all the best men ever yet they hardly learn about them. It would be way more productive imo to actually talk about what those men stood for because shit I admire them way more when I actually know what they were about.

[Gooch]

"A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything."
- Malcolm X

[OAS]

And I know patriotism shouldn't be a fad but IT WAS. After 9/11 Patriotism WAS something done for awhile and then it slowly was forgotten, as much as it's "bad" it's true.

Truer words have never been spoken by you Ikea, even in your movie critiques. This is one thing that is bothering me. The ashes of the WTC haven't even settled yet and the patriotisim is all but dead. To me it is very sad.

And AM, your point is very valid. Understanding the principles that the founding fathers sought, and how they made it come about is phenominal. And in our 226 years of infancy, we are still trying to make it work. We must continue trying to perfect it.

[Doc]

Word up Gramps

Ikea, there is a difference between liking the country and being ready to defend it with your life.

You like America, you enjoy your freedoms and you opportunities, but do you love the idea of America?

Do you understand that the idea of America is much greater than the country itself. Right now there are thousands of people making sacrifices so you can keep your comfortable way of life. And why do they do that, why do they risk so much for strangers? Because they believe in America and they want to defend all Americans. Not for the greater glory of the nation or to increase the wealth of the state, but to defend the way of life of us here.

If all you are willing to do is criticize what is wrong, you are not a patriot. Neither is the whackjob who beats up immigrants because they are not 'real Americans'. Feel free to speak your mind about what is wrong, but don't say that just because you live here, you have the right not to care.

[Gooch]

Most feel that there is a definative seperation to being a patriot and showing protest. Therefore, the new generation, for the most part, will protest against the World Trade Organization, and anything else that is trendy. Yet, this is a minority. The majority of the younger generation instead are disenfranchised. They adhere to nothing but instant gratification of video games, TV plots, and anything else they can watch, smoke, drink to "escape". Therefore...they stand with nobody. And, one must wonder if the shit ever hits fan, will they fold like a folding chair.

However, I'm not sure the blame is to go there. After all, they were taught by their elders to be this way. So where should this blame really go, except to everyone involved??

[Keyser Soze]

Its sad to say but it would take another horrific event like 9/11 for the people in our country to wake up and get back into the frenzy they did those weeks after the event. How does one show patriotism? Is displaying a flag patriotism? I think a true patriot informs themselves about their country and seeks the truth about why our enemies wish to target us and what role we play in the world.

I don't consider the people who simply do things in a mob mentality to be patriots. A patriot defends his country to the death because its where he rests his head and where he calls his home. A true patriot should always be, not just when its the popular thing to do.

We need people like OAS to remind us what we take for granted.

[fbd]

i'm wondering one thing here...why is it unamerican to not feel anything about a bunch of words?why does it matter what i say, not what i feel?yes, i do love this country, and it is possible that i would join the armed forces if something like another ww2 happened.but that doesnt change the fact that the pledge is just words, and that the fourth is just a boring day i have to spend with my cousins.this country isnt the shining beacon people seem to think it is, though.you've mentioned stuff like the cuban missle crisis where we were an inch from nuclear war, but what about iran contra, when there were groups operating from as high as the secretary of state who were financing wars, or the countless leaders of small nations that were assasinated and deposed because we thought that the country wanting its own citizens to earn money was a commie plot?yes, we are the best country in the world, yes i love it here, but it isnt perfect.oh no, i dont think the pledge is more than words, i know our country does shitty things.i guess i'm a commie terrorist now

[Ken'sPen]

Patriotism is for morons.
I love this country, but not blindly.
I love the freedoms this country offers. The greatest are to speak out against it. To criticize it. Yet to do so riles up all the flag waving patriots to condemn me as anti american.
I was born an american with the same degree of self determination that made me be born, white, or male, or Epicopalian, or anyother aspect I had no control over.
So to wave a flag simply because I was born here seems a little hallow.
Or to proclaim every thing we do is right just because WE did it is stupid.

I love America, because it is ever evolving. The amendments to the constitution were made because people were able to find flaw with the job done by the founding fathers.
I think our nation is the greatest on the Earth,
Because I am not compelled to call it the greatest on the earth.

[Keyser Soze]

patriotism is about action and wanting to do thing to defend your country.

do i agree with everything that goes on here? no. would i defend all our freedoms to the death? damn right i would.

i actually think the pledge is a cool thing. it makes me feel good, i like seeing my fellow americans sharing a moment to acknowledge our privledges of freedom and the responsibilities that come along with it.

[PollyannaFlower46]

Bravo OAS. Its a shame that it took 9/11 to even make some of us realize just how good we have it. I remember as a child looking at my great grandfather's arm, tattooed with numbers from the concentration camp, not realizing that if it was not for this country, he would've died like the rest of his family. I see the rest of the country and how so many seem so unaffected by 9/11 and it sickens me....New York is part of America, and as an American you should care...

[Sluggo]

I care...
I still have my flag on my truck, always will...
I still (and always did) watch CNN...
Yes Stoners are concerned about world events...
This country has done some fucked up things, but...
They are only MEN, our leaders, and...
Sometimes people get off track when they are looking at something so huge as the security of our nation...
As far as the pledge goes...
Sure, that line shoud never have been added...
But, the meaning of the word GOD is all relevant to an individuals beliefs...
I am Agnostic, raised Catholic, as a child, I spoke every line of the pledge...
Now, I just leave that out...
I'm not offended...
How can words offend me if they mean nothing to me?
I do understand the whole "Church and State" argument, but, we have far more pressing issues to worry about.

[Doc]

why is it unamerican to not feel anything about a bunch of words

but it isnt perfect.oh no, i dont think the pledge is more than words, i know our country does shitty things.i guess i'm a commie terrorist now

Like I said before, the IDEA of America is greater than the country itself. The Pledge of Alliegance is just some stupid words that we all had to say every day, but the idea behind them is what is important. The fact that you pledge yourself to the idea of America is better than just saying the poem.

Sometimes people forget what the idea of America is, or they do the wrong things for its namesake, but that doesn't tarnish the basic premise behind this nation, and that premise is still one of the most beautiful ideas there is

Sorry, I'm just a patriotic young fart

[PollyannaFlower46]

Sorry, I'm just a patriotic young fart

Don't apologize, there's not enough patroitism among people in our age group.... In my school which has a high immigrant population, the Muslim students are always posting anti-American shit on the walls...but they go to school here for free.... There's so many people who live here and claim to hate it, yet they sponge....

[Keyser Soze]

i'm the first person to criticize this country for things they do, even now, i question how well they are fighting this war in afghanistan. i question the ability of our country to defend itself.

you know why i question it? because i want it to be better. i want it to be stronger. i want my freedoms to be more secure. im selfish about the privledges this country allows me.

[PollyannaFlower46]

i want it to be stronger

Why don't you join the fighting?