Topic for Keyser......

[Keyser Soze]

Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases.

see,.....all you needed to do was cite your sources like i asked......bush did try to link iraq to al queda. i stand corrected.

[Keyser Soze]

Did Bush lie about the Plame affair?

Is the Bush administration guilty of destruction of evidence as their emails have been destroyed after Libby claimed Cheney instructed him to release Plame's status as a cia operative?

how about you answer my questions first as i've already answered yours.

Did Bush use money authorized by congress for the war in Afghanistan to start planning the invasion of Iraq?

I don't know, did he? Cite your sources.

Did Bush lie when he says that his Generals have never made requests for more ground troops?

Show me the quote where Bush said it.

[Ken'sPen]

Keyser....
no offense.... but you are fairly ignorant on the facts here....

I don't mean that to be mean.... but you keep asking for quotes or for me to cite sources on things that should be common knowledge to you...

it makes the discussion a bit tiresome.

[Keyser Soze]

no offense but you tend to pull things out of your ass without any basis in truth.

its not my job to make your argument for you.

[Ken'sPen]

hmmmmmm,
have I done that?
cited untrue facts that is?

it's not your job to make my argument for me....

but you should have some understanding of the facts....

[Keyser Soze]

once again, revert to your crutch. rather than lower myself to your level and turn this into a catfight, lets assume they're facts....

we are already in agreement that afghanistan should have been a priority.

we are already in agreement that the war is being mismanaged. i dont think bush willingly lied about generals not asking for more ground troops, he has nothing to gain from it.

[Galt]

Did Clinton's whitehouse destroy documents regarding whitewater?

Did Clinton's whitehouse destroy documents regarding travelgate, filegate, etc?

Did Clinton's whitehouse destroy documents and obstruct justice regarding Vince Fosters' "suicide"?

Did Clinton lie to Congress?

You make it seem like all this whitehouse secrecy and lies is new.

And you continue to say that Bush "lied" about nuclear weapons. If he lied then so did all the democrats who said the same thing. Many on both sides of the fence were saying that Iraq had the desire and ability to create nuclear weapons.

Many were also tying Sadam to Al Queda. They were doing so erroneously, and were most likely doing so because the American people wanted a "bad guy" to attack after 9/11 regardless of whether it was warranted or not.

I'm not debating the point that we went into Iraq for the wrong reasons (I thought Iraq posed a danger, but they had for 10 years. Why all of a sudden were they a priority? 9/11.) but let's call a spade a spade, and admit that the vast majority of politicians on both sides of the fense were all in agreement that Saddam caused a clear and present danger to the US regarding both chemical and potentially nuclear weapons.

So that's point one. Point two is that it's not like Bush pulled this info out of his ass. As Keyser has already pointed out, the vast majority of our allies also agreed with the intelligence we believed.

If the Democrats actually didn't believe it; thought there was no connection with Al Queda, thought there were no nuclear weapons, thought there was no ability or intention to develop nuclear weapons, thought there was no clear and present danger to the US, why didn't they say anything? For those few who did oppose the actions, why was there no support within their own party? Did Bush just outright lie to everyone in the country and the government and Democrats just bought it hook line and sinker?

[GonzoStyle]

Did Al Gore shoot niggas in the face?

[Ken'sPen]

i dont think bush willingly lied about generals not asking for more ground troops, he has nothing to gain from it.

This shows your lack of understanding.....

Bush has EVERYTHING to gain from lying by it.....

Bush has been running this war for political reasons, at the expense of tactics or results. He is unwilling to admit that he went in with less men than his generals wanted, because to do so would be to admit the political considerations that have been driving the war.

[Keyser Soze]

Right, because fighting to lose is a much better political tactic than actually doing everything in his power to wage a successful campaign.

You are so blinded by partisan politics and bush hate your common sense has taken a permenant vacation.

[Ken'sPen]

putting in sufficient forces would have raised the costs of the war... putting his tax cuts in jeopardy.

If he really asked us to pay for the war, instead of borrow for it, people would have examined it's necessity more closely, and he might have lost his ability to do it.....

so the costs and the manpower were intentionally underestimated.

[Keyser Soze]

we were going to war no matter the cost.....they estimated 50-100 billion, now its looking more like 500 billion.....i mean these numbers are just ridiculous

you honestly are going to tell me there was gonna be a point where someone said, ehhhhh nah thats too much money, lets just skip this whole iraq war idea.......you're living in a fantasy world.

[Ken'sPen]

Keyser....
google things like the "Iraq Group" there was a coordinated PR effort made to sell the war to the American Public. From the Start people like Wolfowitz were selling it on the premise that a low number of ground forces would be required, and that Iraqi Oil would finance the cost of the war itself.

These became crucial points on the RNC talking points and Rush, and Hannity, and Fox news drove home these "facts" on a daily basis.

remember when "we would be greeted as liberators and the Iraqi people would throw roses at our feet"?

[Keyser Soze]

Ken,

i'm not a political talk radio robot like you seem to be.

i dont care what rush said, i dont care what hannity said, fox news is a joke.

you can play the partisan politics game, say the administration sold you something they didnt deliver on. i use common sense and know that the government, no matter who is in power, is going to paint the rosiest possible picture to gain acceptance...its not a republican thing, its not a democratic thing.....i know all about the PR effort that was made, and the downing street memo's where blair and bush framed their case for war...this is all window dressing.

we are in agreement on more points regarding the war than not, the difference is i don't buy into the whole far left conspiracy theories that bush has some grand scheme for world domination and is hell bent on getting it done with or without your consent.

[Ken'sPen]

we are in agreement on more points regarding the war than not, the difference is i don't buy into the whole far left conspiracy theories that bush has some grand scheme for world domination and is hell bent on getting it done with or without your consent.

again, you are reframing my position to something I didn't say and don't believe....

we started with my assertion that Bush was intentionally using unrealistically low numbers in cost and man power. and ignored the requests of his Generals, while he claimed otherwise.....
if you now feel you lost those points fine... but don't try to repaint my positions.

[Ken'sPen]

Ken,

i'm not a political talk radio robot like you seem to be.

i dont care what rush said, i dont care what hannity said, fox news is a joke.

these points are important though Keyser.....

I am claiming that the Bush administration lied to get us into a war.
You are looking at the narrowest terms... What Bush actually said.

While I feel that you must look at:
*What Bush said
*What membes of the Bush Administration said
*And since Bush is paying for News and Press coverage, what did his press bulletins say that get read verbetim by his media outlets.

[Keyser Soze]

Bush was intentionally using unrealistically low numbers in cost and man power. and ignored the requests of his Generals, while he claimed otherwise.....

tell me ken......with your logic, how would more troops on the ground change the current situation?

the problem isnt the number of troops, the problem is there is no exit strategy.

how would more money and more troops solve our issues in Iraq?

You are looking at the narrowest terms... What Bush actually said.

so you ignore the source and rely on talking heads to disseminate and interpret actual words for you?

[Ken'sPen]

Keyser....
Bush lied from the moment he stepped into the Whitehouse....

If you recall, when the Bush team took over there were stories of how the Clinton team Trashed the Whitehouse, Looted, and trashed Air Force One as well.....

these stories continued until a Republican Congressmen demanded hearings into the matter, and Clinton be presented with a bill.....
Only after someone OUT of the loop demanded an investigation did the truth come out... that these stories were not true.

Now you can hide behind politics and claim that Bush NEVER made these claims, so he didn't lie...

BUT in my book, if the administration is leeking false stories, and the President sits idly by.... he has given tacit approval of the lie, and he owns it.

[Keyser Soze]

post the lies and we will discuss, you continue to talk out of your ass and say...."well keyser, you should really know the facts".....no, you are making claims you cannot base in reality....your premises are all founded on some left wing conspiracy theory that the administration is knowingly lying to the american public.

if you have some specific evidence of them caught in a lie, i'd be more than happy to entertain your claims....otherwise you sound like the left wing version of hannity and rush, you're no different than the same kooks on the right who are more concerned about politics than the country itself.

[Ken'sPen]

tell me ken......with your logic, how would more troops on the ground change the current situation?

the problem isnt the number of troops, the problem is there is no exit strategy.

how would more money and more troops solve our issues in Iraq?

Simple Keyser....
* We dismantled the Iraqi Army and Police Forces, therefore we became responsible for law enforcement.... with insufficient troops we were unable to do so.... remember the looting. From the start the message of lawlessness was given to the Iraqi people
* We had insufficient forces to secure the borders, and the infamous foreign fighters had unfettered access.
* We had insufficient forces to secure the munitions dumps, and these facilities were raided and used in the production of the roadside explosives we have been hit by.
*We had insufficient forces and Contract Soldiers were hired by companies for protection. These men do NOT report to the US Army and have done much to enflame hostilities.
*Forces have been insufficient to protect the work force engaged in rebuilding and Electric and Oil Production are still under pre war levels...

do I need to continue?