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| Posted By | Discussion Topic: Baseball HOF Ballots... Scraping the Bottom of the Barrel? | ||||
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King Shit *board owner* | posted on 11-30-2001 @ 7:25 PM |    | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Feb. 01  | I'm surprised nobody posted this, but the ballot list was announced earlier this week for this year's Cooperstown inductions. This is the complete list: Bert Blyleven, Gary Carter, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Lenny Dykstra, Steve Garvey, Rich Gossage, Mike Greenwell, Ron Guidry, Mike Henneman, Keith Hernandez, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Jeff Russell, Scott Sanderson, Ozzie Smith, Dave Stewart, Bruce Sutter, Robby Thompson, Luis Tiant, Alan Trammell, Frank Viola, Tim Wallach. Is it me, or are we beginning to scrape the bottom of the barrel? Yes some of these players deserve to get in, Carter, Hernandez, Trammell, Ozzie, Dawson, Rice, and Parker are all HOF caliber. But it seems we're beginning to bring up for induction a lot of borderline and very mediocre players. I'd much rather see the HOF induct fewer of the most elite and deserving players than to dilute the hallowed halls with merely average players.  I believe in the Faith... that can save me. I believe in the hope and I pray... That someday it may raise me... above these badlands | ||||
| onehung lo434 | posted on 11-30-2001 @ 8:29 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Mike Greenwell...I laughed when I heard his name mentioned for the hall. There is no way possible he is hall of fame material. I'd be surprised he gets more than 4 votes. Maybe Rice will finally get enough votes to get in. I'd say out of that list, Carter,Murphy,& Ozzie makes it in...Possibly Mattingly  | ||||
| WhackBagKid TALK TO ME, GOMEZ. HE WHO IS #1. | posted on 11-30-2001 @ 9:34 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Sep. 00 | Nails! Nails! Nails! Nails! White Hoochies, Always Good | ||||
| PeterDragon | posted on 11-30-2001 @ 9:57 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | you gotta remember, the ballot is just those who qualify. I don't think too many people are gonna vote for Robby Thompson. When they vote in mediocre players (as they have done), that's when it's time to bitch. Remember this is the first year that they revised the veteran's committee voting. Hopefully there will be no more "Rick Ferrell" elections. Although I would be very happy if they finally inducted Gil Hodges.  | ||||
...And now the battle between us and them has begun. JYD-4-LIFE. | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 12:53 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: May. 00 | Do you think that Nails went to A.C. and put some money on himself to make the HOF?;) Its ok, I can make fun, I was one of his biggest fans:) You know, guys, I moved here and I thought, "Great! I'm outta the big city and I'm finally in a place where everybody isn't gonna be crawling up everybody's asshole every day! A place where maybe my biggest nightmare is gonna be getting some goddamn cat out of a tree!" But forget that! EVERYBODY IS INSANE,EVERYWHERE! | ||||
| WhackBagKid TALK TO ME, GOMEZ. HE WHO IS #1. | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 1:10 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Sep. 00 | that would be really funny if he made it in to the hall of fame then the trade for juan samuel would look even more horrendous then it already does White Hoochies, Always Good | ||||
| The Sleeper Being a Minor is a Threat to my Social Life PoseUr i ahve 2 threads at teh top, i feel like maynard | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 1:25 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | As long as Raphael Belliard never shows up on the ballot, I don't see a problem. I think they put players like Greenwell and Thompson on the ballot to humor them, but neither of them has a shot of making it. The HOF has not changed its very high standards | ||||
| Sir Okonkwo | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 2:16 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | Bottom of the barrel? Hardly. Sure, it isn't Ryan-Brett-Yount, but this year's ballot is not exactly a weak one. Every year you'll have players with no chance in hell, last year's Andy Van Slyke is this year's Mike Greenwell. Anyway, on to the list... Bert Blyleven - Probably the best pitcher not in the Hall. 287 career wins, 3.31 ERA, 3701 strikeouts (fourth all time), 60 career shutouts over 23 seasons. Seems like a no brainer, and if he would have gotten to 300 wins, he'd be in already no doubt Gary Carter - Another no brainer (which says something about the BBWA), one of the best catchers of all time. At first glance his numbers don't look that incredible, but when you consider that he played in an era dominated by pitching, and his entire career was spent behind the plate, it's that much more impressive. An amazing peak which lasted from 77-87, three GG awards, 11 time All-Star, 75th on the career Home Run list, and the cornerstone of the 86 Mets. Should be in yesterday. Dave Concepcion - A damn good SS who put up decent offensive numbers. Close, but not quite HOF material, IMO. Andre Dawson - Should be in. Long, consistent career with 438 HR, 1591 RBI, respectable .279 BA, and 8 GG. Unfortunately, he never had the benefit of playing with an elite team, or he'd be in already, easy. Lenny Dykstra - No chance. Career was too short and inconsistent. Next. Steve Garvey - Nope. Great in the late 70's, but his career doesn't hold up. Not HOF material. Rich Gossage - Kinda tricky. Stacked up against today's relievers, his numbers just don't look that great. But again, different era, different standards. Couldn't hack it as a starter, going 9-17 in the failed experiment of 1976, but in many ways he helped define what a good closer should be. He's also better than Rollie Fingers, who's in the Hall already, so I say yes to the Goose. Mike Greenwell - HA! Ron Guidry - Good pitcher, falls short. Not HOF material. Mike Henneman - Please... Keith Hernandez - At first I wasn't convinced, but now I say, he should be in. Lifetime .296 BA, 1979 co-MVP, and always near the top in BA and OBP in the pitching-dominant NL. Also the best defensive 1B ever to play the game. He's in. Tommy John - I'm not sold on him. Good career, numbers are inflated because he played for so looooong. Just misses... Jim Kaat - A quick look at his numbers tells me he was a damn good pitcher, but not a Hall of Fame pitcher. Don Mattingly - Nope, doesn't cut it. Better career numbers than Hernandez, but he had the benefit of hitting against weak AL pitching. Very good player, probably retired too soon. Falls short. Jack Morris - Similar to Tommy John. Great, long career, but in the end, I wouldn't vote for him, at least not yet. Dale Murphy - On the surface, his numbers look great, but would they be nearly as impressive without the benefit of playing 82 games a year in the Launching Pad? The split between home and away numbers is pretty great, even in his prime. I'd leave him out, at least for now. Dave Parker - A good argument could be made for him, but I don't see it. No vote. Jim Rice - In the same boat as Murphy and Parker. Great career, but not great enough. Jeff Russell - No Scott Sanderson - No Ozzie Smith - Should be a near unanimous selection. In. Dave Stewart - No. Very good for a few years, but that's about it. Bruce Sutter - On the same level as Goose. A top reliever for his era, he should go in. Also better than Fingers. Robby Thompson - No Luis Tiant - Great pitcher, but no. Similar to Morris, Kaat, and John. Alan Trammell - A case could be made for taking him and Lou Whitaker as a unit. On his own, however, he's not worthy. Frank Viola - One of my all time favorite pitchers. Still, not HOF caliber. Tim Wallach - Not even close. So that leaves my fantasy ballot looking like: Bert Blyleven, Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage, Keith Hernandez, Ozzie Smith, Bruce Sutter. Pretty damn good list of players, if you ask me. On another HOF note, the class of 2007 looks damn good, with Mark McGwire, Cal Ripken Jr., and Tony Gwynn as definite first-ballot entries.  "My political opinions lean more towards anarchy....The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men."-J.R.R. Tolkien, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 1981 "Shit, Piss, Fuck, Cunt, Cocksucker, Motherfucker and Tits"-George Carlin "Now you listen here to me, you horrible little creature"-William Regal to X-Pac | ||||
| The Sleeper Being a Minor is a Threat to my Social Life PoseUr i ahve 2 threads at teh top, i feel like maynard | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 3:05 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Great Post Okwonko. You might be able to give Francine Banger a run for his money in sports knowledge. And do you think if Dave Stewart doesn't make it, he'll accuse the HOF of being racist? | ||||
| Dan-O | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 3:45 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Nov. 00 | No Sleeper, I know Francine, and this Okonkwo, he's no Francine. Sigh. Makes me wish I had an interesting username. Blyleven and Carter will get in eventually, but Dawson will have to wait a very long time if he ever does. Jack Morris yes, but Dale Murphy hell no. Don't know about the Goose and the Bruce, never really saw them pitch, and closer stats are hard to judge, especially now that we have the Blown Save to kick around. How many closers are in the HOF? Is Rollie the only one? I can't wait for Eckersley to get in, that was dominance. Too bad Dave Stewart didn't get straightened out by Dave Duncan before he was in his 30s... he had 4 straight 20-win seasons. Has any other pitcher done that since divisional play? (I don't know. Francine?)  "If it wasn't for the weed, I don't think I'd get nothin' done!" -- Snoop Dogg, "The Daily Show" | ||||
| prototype | posted on 12-01-2001 @ 4:45 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Aug. 01 | I've gone to like 5 inductions and Jim Kaat's always there trying to get some pull on getting in.He was a good pitcher though. USA Bin Laden is a dead man Free Northern Ireland | ||||
| PeterDragon | posted on 12-02-2001 @ 9:47 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | quote: I disagree; I think Concepcion's numbers are excellent for his era. The HOF question should be "did he dominate his position in his era". Concepcion was first SS (in a while)who was excellent and could hit. 9 time all star, 5 gold gloves. baseball-reference.com is a site that does statistical analysis based on some of Bill James stats (of total baseball.com). It is handy site to see how these players stack up. | ||||
| Wookie | posted on 12-07-2001 @ 3:12 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Mar. 01 | Bill James just wrote a book called "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract" that revolves around a very interesting new take he developed on ranking players. (It's profiled in-depth in the No. 21-27 Baseball Weekly) Barebones, he feels he has found a way to equitably compare players from different eras, taking into account things like home park, overall league performance, and whether a player was on a good or bad team. It also weighs offense, defense, and pitching. He calls it "Win Shares" and he attempts to measure players' overall contribution to thier teams performance. It's very interesting, and I tend to think he may be on to something. The top players are the usual suspects: 1-Ruth, 2-H.Wagner, 3-Mays, 4-Oscar Charleston, 5-Cobb, 6-Mantle, 7-T.Williams, 8-Walter Johnson, 9-Josh Gibson, 10-Musial Some interesting conclusions, though: 16-Bonds, 21-Schmidt, 23-Cy Young, 26-Rickey Henderson, 35-Biggio(!), 45-Bagwell, 61-E.Murray, 68-Hank Greenberg(low?), 73-Griffey Jr. Anyway, he concludes Carter is the 8th best catcher of all time (Piazza, 5th), Eddie Murray is the 5th best 1st baseman of all time, Clemens is the 11th best pitcher (Maddux 14th), Schmidt as best 3B ever (Boggs 4th, Nettles 13th), and Jim Rice only 27th best leftfielder ever. That's left-, not out-. James on Rice, "Probably the most overrated player of the last 30 years." My ballot would read: Blyleven, Carter, Dawson, Smith, Hernandez. If you're gonna put in Mazeroski and say it's because defense needs to be recognized, then you have to vote Hernandez in. (Yes, I know it's 2 different committees.) Thank you for being a friend.  "No one's going to walk up to George Lucas and say, 'R2D2 is a schmuck.'" - Richard Dreyfuss | ||||
| PeterDragon | posted on 01-08-2002 @ 11:11 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Time to bring this thread back up. HOF voting time, and as usual, there are a few clear cut choices. Here is some of my takes. Gary Carter. - There is no question that I am biased in his favor. He helped return joy to Metville. Even when he played in Montreal he was a dominant catcher. Excellent power, good defensive catcher in all aspects (throwing, blocking, calling game). Always fun to watch - never dogged it. Hall of Famer with out a doubt (especially when compared to Fisk). I think this year he gets it. Ozzie Smith. Interesting candidate. Human highlight film, who became productive offensively. Prototypical shortstop - excellent fielder who could bunt, take walks, steal, etc. Probably a Hall of Famer, as his defense at key position outweighs offensive questions. I would be shocked if not elected in this era of ESPN Sportcenter 24 hrs a day. I hope against hope he doesn't make first ballot though - I still think that if HOF isn't what it once was, at least 1st time election should be special. Luis Tiant. - Had some incredible years - including what (IMO) is an amazing accomplishement- and ERA under 2 (1.91) pitching in Fenway park as a lefthander. A 4 time 20 game winner, 2x ERA under 2.00. I loved this guy, but he has almost no shot though to be elected. ESPN's Jayson Stark points out that if you use Bill James' "Wins Above Average" stat (which measures how many more games a pitcher won than the average pitcher would have won, while pitching for his team in his home ballpark), from 1964 to 1979 Luis Tiant was +35; only Tom Seaver (+43) and Jim Palmer (+42) were better. Goose Gossage & Bruce Sutter. These guys definitely re-defined the closer role. Sutter invented/perfected the Split Finger Fastball, and Goose threw amazing heat out of that bullpen for 2 (and sometimes 3) innings. Maybe this year they get their due. Andre Dawson. Complete player. #26 all time in RBI, #25 all time HR. Excellent fielder with great arm. Definitely broke down on horrible montreal turf. Good guy - won't make it. Dale Murphy - Another all around player who won back-to-back MVP's and 5 gold gloves in CF (after starting out pro career as a catcher). I hated opposing this guy. Mr. All-America. May have been best player of his time, but nothing lasts in your memory. Probably deserves election, won't get in based on his past election totals. Dave Concepcion - I think he was dominating SS of 70's with Big Red machine, but there is no way e gets elected with Ozzie Smith and Alan Trammell on the ballot. Don Mattingly. - Facts are facts. He was dominant for 4 years, good for 4 others, mediocre for rest; great defensively, but at an offensive position. Not a Famer.  | ||||
| NASA | posted on 01-08-2002 @ 2:03 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Sep. 01 | Hall of Fame Voting Results NEW YORK (AP) - Ozzie Smith, regarded as the finest-fielding shortstop ever, was elected to the Hall of Fame on his first try by an overwhelming margin Tuesday. Smith was the only player picked, with Gary Carter falling just short. A 13-time Gold Glove winner while with the St. Louis Cardinals and San Diego Padres, Smith was chosen on 91.7 percent of the ballots. The Wizard of Oz became the 37th player picked in his first year of eligibility. Just one? Mattingly deserved to have made it. And I am not just saying that because I am a Yankees fan. ;)  A City United. A Team To Represent It. Go JETS!!! AFC Wild Card: New York at Oakland; Saturday, 8:00 p.m. (ABC) GodBlessAmerica. | ||||
| Cluster F | posted on 01-08-2002 @ 6:14 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Total horseshit. Gary Carter shoulda made it, and not because im a Mets fan. ;) Go Knicks, Giants, Rangers, and Rutgers Men's Basketball (just beat Georgetown!!) | ||||
King Shit *board owner* | posted on 01-08-2002 @ 6:55 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Feb. 01 | Bullshit. There's no reason Carter shouldn't be in, he was one of the best catchers to play. And I'm sorry, but there's no way Mattingly deserves to be HOF'er, and I'm not just saying that because I hate the Yankees. I believe in the Faith... that can save me. I believe in the hope and I pray... That someday it may raise me... above these badlands | ||||
| RomanHamrlik | posted on 01-08-2002 @ 10:27 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 02 | Years ago, before I started playing hockey for the Islanders,I was a HUGE Mattingly fan. That mo-fo would be a shoo-in if only his back hadn't stopped functioning properly.......Its the luck of the draw, sometimes the competition is weak-thats why Ozzie Smith is in right now..... | ||||
| Sir Okonkwo | posted on 01-09-2002 @ 3:26 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | Well, I knew Smith was gonna be a first ballot HOFer, and at 91.7%, pretty near unanimous, just like I said. ;) Anyway, as I said in my reply last month, Bert Blyleven, Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage, Keith Hernandez, and Bruce Sutter all deserve to be in as well, IMO. Probably Carter makes it next year, seeing as how he only fell 11 votes short. Still baffled as to why Blyleven is still on the outside looking in, but I'm sure his time will eventually come, even if it is the Veterans Committee that finally gets him in. You really can't ignore numbers like his. Oh, and Mattingly is SO not a Hall Of Famer. This message was edited by Sir Okonkwo on 1-9-02 @ 3:33 AM | ||||
| PeterDragon | posted on 01-09-2002 @ 1:03 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | quote: I said it before , I'll say it again. He was dominant for 4 years, good for 4 others, mediocre for rest; great defensively, but at an offensive position. Gary Carter, on the other hand, got screwed. Simply, Where does Carter rank on All-Time catcher list?(of those who have retired) Now try doing the same for Mattingly and 1st base. The other players who probably got screwed were Rice & Sutter. Rice ticked off too many people, but he was among best hitters of his era. For those who didn't see Bruce Sutter, he was as automatic as Mariano seems to be today, and he was first to perfect the split-fingered fastball, which has become a significant weapon. Goose Gossage was as dominant, but Sutter did it first, and was at least as good if not slightly better than Gossage. If Lee Smith (next year eligible) gets in before Sutter and Gossage, it goes to show that voting is a joke. | ||||
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