Blurring the line separating church and state...

[SO]

Show me ONE example of the enforcement of any of these laws within the last 50 years.

Outdated laws unfortunately remain on the books.

Nice research, but it doesn't mean anything.

[FollowThisLogic]

Where are the laws that say how many pigs or chickens you get when you become mayor?

Crackle, you're frickin insane. SO really has you by the balls, but you won't admit that you lost...

SO - didn't know about the alternate oath, but it's a step in the right direction, and actually a point I addressed in my first post.

Well, why doesn't it have business there?

Hmm, should I say it's because religion is a concept that's hundreds of years past its usefulness? Should I argue (again) that posting the beliefs of one religion ostracizes other religions? Should I remind you that this could leave them open to litigation by some politically-correct douche?

Actually, I think I'll just say that religion always was and always will be a form of controlling the masses. Except, now we have laws for such things. You don't need to worry about punishment in some ridiculous afterlife that you invented because you're afraid of death - if the cops catch you doing something wrong, you get punished for it now..... and that's probably the reason you're going to any court anyway.

If fire and brimstone rains down on the next gay parade like Sodom and Gomorrah, I might start to believe in god. Otherwise, even if he does exist, he just doesn't care anymore. :grin2:

[JimmyBlueEyes]

I think what they are trying to say is that certain laws are based on the ten commandments.

If you think about it and really want to split hairs, the ten commandments were probably the first true set of laws. This is courthouse, a house of Law. No reason why you can't show off some of the earliest recorded laws on a monument in the courthouse. Take the religious part out of it.(I know it's hard to but try it)

[Crackle]

You guys are fucking idiots. Never once did I say having the 10 commandments up is a good thing. I DON'T CARE. I'm a fucking atheist. If it makes the zealots happy, fine. Whether these laws are enforced or not is irrelevant. The fact is they do exist. Anyone who thinks the laws are not, a least in part, based on the ten commandments is an idiot. Don't forget who founded this place. Pilgrims and Puritans. People who left their homeland to practice their religion in peace. FTL, you are blinded by your bigotry.

THIS WHOLE THING IS A NON-ISSUE. Who cares. Gee, religion in the south. What a fucking surprise. Fucking idiots.

[madmick]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

— The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, "On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

The phrase 'separation of Church and state' was first used in Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."



Read the rest here:

[FollowThisLogic]

Originally posted by Crackle
FTL, you are blinded by your bigotry.

Not really, I can just see all sides of the argument. Sure, if you believe in the shit, I can see how you'd want it displayed. But there are plenty of people who wouldn't want it there. The bigotry is having it there. You're basically displaying that Judaic religions are above others in the eyes of the law. Otherwise, why aren't all religions represented?

[Crackle]

You're basically displaying that Judaic religions are above others in the eyes of the law

What a crock of shit. As I said before, the 10 are in the Supreme Court of the United Sates, and the Supreme Court starts each session with a prayer. So following your logic, the Supreme Court thinks that Judeo-Christian religion is better than any other? Wrong. Don't be so stupid.

[Wookies Cruel Circus]

Originally posted by SO
Wookie, a question:

If I were to become mayor of the town in which you live, and decided to post the Eleven Satanic Rules Of The Earth in front of the courthouse, would you object?

I might. But my objecting doesn't mean I'd have a leg to stand on. Honestly, I'm a little surprised they are so tame. I was expecting something more apocolyptic. They don't really stray too far from the Ten Commandments.
But honestly, I probably wouldn't be moved to much of a protest, just like I'm not that moved now.

The main point you guys seem to be trying to make is that having this statue there is exclusionary to all other religions. You're going to have to explain that position, as I am not accepting that as a given.

And, as far as Crackle's points, my first thought when he was trying to campare the Ten to current law was Blue Laws, too. For example, up until very recently, liquor stores could not open at all on Sunday in NY. And there are limitations on types of work that can be done in Jersey on Sunday, as well. Those laws are in place b/c Sunday is the Christian holy day, no? The medicare thing was a stretch, though.

FTL, yes, it opens them up to lawsuits, but that's not really a decent reason to do or not do something. And whether or not you feel religion is useful or real doesn't really determine the properness of the argument, either. In fact, wouldn't their "fakeness" then make them more innocuous and less of a problem?

I think Moore is wrong to defy the federal court's order. That is not the proper way to handle the issue, and it is likely he will be punished for it, and rightfully so. (It's been suggested he may try to parlay this notoriety into a bigger political run down the line...)
I don't even have cut and dry feelings about the validity of his points. I think there are definitely states' rights issues, I think the question of how far church vs. state goes should be answered, and I think we need to decide if the simple existence or acknowledgment of religion is or should be problematic to "non-believers." I think anyone who says the issue is absolute one way or the other isn't giving it enough thought.

[Goodwitchk]

Though the Ten Commandments may have some interesting ideas, it is NOT the law of the land. That honor goes to the US Constitution.

Move the Ten Commandments to the State House or the nearest dump, but get them the fuck out of a courthouse.

Freedom of speech? US Constitution
Right to bear arms? US Constitution
Fair trial, right to an atty, yadda yadd...

Free Speech applies to art. Go to town and condiser this a piece of art, but it shouldn't be decorating the courts.

[FollowThisLogic]

Yes, Crackle, it DOES show that the Supreme court favors the Judaic religions over other ones. Again, if it didn't, then why aren't other religions represented? There's no statue of Buddha. I don't see Brahma, Shiva, or Vishnu. Perhaps more realistically, I don't see Buddhist of Hindu laws posted. No Eleven Satanic Rules. No agnostic or atheist pillar questioning the existence of your god.

I really don't buy that you're an atheist, dude. You don't think logically enough. You blindly follow others. So if you're not religious, you might think about picking it up, cause you're already full of shit like they are. If you can't see how representing one religion and NO OTHER is bigotry, then you're fucking blind. Most people arguing this case are blinded by their own religious beliefs... what's your excuse?

You say that the commandments are actual laws already - I would have no problem if they posted those actual laws in place of the commandments, complete with their statute number or whatnot. No problem - because those are laws of this country. But commandments are laws of religion, and that's fucking bullshit.