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Before reading, keep in mind my question...
What do you think Purple Heart Kerry would've changed with his unilatteral talks he was calling for out of one side of his mouth while simultaneously criticizing Bush for not involving the international community more?



Quote:<span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'>North Korea:
'We have nukes'</span>
U.S., allies blister Pyongyang for pulling out
of disarmament talks


SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea triggered an avalanche of international criticism Thursday when it boasted for the first time that it had nuclear weapons and rejected moves to restart disarmament talks any time soon.

Using a flip Western expression for such weapons, the government said in an English-language statement carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency: “We ... have manufactured nukes for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration’s evermore undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the [North].”

The United States and South Korea, the North’s main rivals, played down the revelation and urged North Korea to return to the six-nation talks that began in 2003, which also include China, Japan and Russia. Analysts suggested that the statement could be a negotiating tactic aimed at extracting concessions from its negotiating partners.

“After its previous claims had failed to draw enough attention, North Korea now seeks to make people take it more seriously, create an atmosphere of crisis and make its negotiating partners pay more in order to persuade it to give up its nuclear capabilities,” a senior South Korean official said on condition of anonymity.


Bush, West on the hot seat
Whatever the explanation, the statement dramatically raised the stakes in the two-year nuclear confrontation and posed a grave challenge to President Bush, who once branded the North part of an “axis of evil” along with Iran and Iraq but started his second term with a vow to end its nuclear program through the six-nation talks.

The Bush administration called on Pyongyang to give up its atomic aspirations Thursday so life could be better for its impoverished people. The United Nations also urged the North to reverse course, while other participants in the talks called the announcement a “major mistake” and a development that could “only cause regret.”

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, meanwhile, dismissed the North’s contention that the United States would attack it.
“The North Koreans have been told by the president of the United States that the United States has no intention of attacking or invading North Korea,” Rice said in Luxembourg, where she was on the final day of her tour of Europe and the Middle East. “There is a path for the North Koreans that would put them in a more reasonable relationship with the rest of the world.”

Estimates say about a half-dozen weapons
North Korea’s claim could not be verified independently, because it expelled the last U.N. nuclear monitors in late 2002. “Nothing in the last 24 hours has contributed factually to our understanding” of North Korea’s nuclear program, said Adam Ereli, a spokesman for the State Department.

The North is not known to have tested an atomic bomb, but international officials have long suspected that it has one or two nuclear weapons. The CIA has estimated that with a highly enriched uranium weapons program and the use of sophisticated high-speed centrifuges, North Korea could be making more.


A U.S. official told NBC News’ Robert Windrem on Thursday that U.S. intelligence would not dispute reported estimates that North Korea had six to eight nuclear weapons, noting that the Energy Department had said it could have as many as 10 or 12.

“What the North said today confirms what our intelligence has been for more than a decade,” the official said on condition of anonymity.
A recent Air Force analysis said North Korea was believed to have “fewer than 50” ballistic missiles able to deliver a nuclear weapon, none of which had a range of more than 800 miles — capable of reaching anywhere in South Korea or Japan, but not the United States. The U.S. official would not comment on whether it was known to have built missile warheads rather than simple gravity bombs.
First public claim of weapons

Previously, North Korea told international negotiators in closed-door talks that it had nuclear weapons and might test one of them, South Korean officials say. The North’s envoy to the United Nations told reporters last year that the country had “weaponized” plutonium from its pool of 8,000 nuclear spent fuel rods. Those rods would contain enough plutonium for several bombs.

But the statement Thursday was North Korea’s first public announcement that it had nuclear weapons, which it said would “will remain [a] nuclear deterrent for self-defense under any circumstances.”

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a U.S. official told NBC News’ Andrea Mitchell that North Korea “must feel the U.S. is deeply engaged elsewhere in the world. They do feel there is a deterrent effect to these kinds of weapons.”
However, the North runs the risk, through such a statement, of alienating countries in the region that have provided economic support. In addition, in “classic North Korean fashion,” the official noted, they have “left the door open a crack to return to talks” by stating an indefinite suspension of participation.

International community urges resumption of talks
South Korea said Thursday the North’s decision to stay away from talks was “seriously regrettable,” and it repeated its previous estimate that Pyongyang had enough plutonium to build one or two nuclear bombs.
We once again urge North Korea to rejoin the six-party talks without conditions so that it can discuss whatever differences it has with the United States and other participants,” said Lee Kyu-hyung, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry. “We express our strong concern with the North Korean statement that it has nuclear weapons, and we again declare our stance that we will never tolerate North Korea possessing nuclear weapons.”

In London, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan also urged North Korea to rejoin the talks, and he asked the five other nations to help.

“I expect that with efforts by the other countries involved, North Korea could be brought back to the table,” Annan said following talks with British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary Jack Straw.
In addition to the United States and South Korea, the other participants joined Annan’s call.

“It would be a major mistake for the DPRK were they to go down that route,” Straw said in a joint news conference with Annan, referring to the country by the initials of its formal name, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.
Russia’s Foreign Ministry said North Korea’s move “can only cause regret,” adding that Moscow respected Pyongyang’s concern about its safety but believed “that the problem should be resolved through negotiations rather than arms race, especially nuclear arms race.”

The chief spokesman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Kong Quan, said in a statement on the ministry’s Web site: “We consistently advocate the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula and the preservation of the peninsula’s peace and stability.”
Fucking christ...I'll make this brief for now and give you some background, but I'll be back later.

First off I partially blame both Bush and Clinton for this whole situation, but more Bush at least because he could have prevented this. Clinton is partially to blame in defaulting on some aid payments, but Bush pretty much sealed the deal by stopping aid entirely and leaving North Korea with nothing to lose, and is thus more to blame.

The aid program was started when over a million people starved to death in the mid 90s and the U.S. viewed it as an opportunity to bring them back closer to the rest of the World community. After Kim Il Sung died and Kim Jong Il took power, the Clinton administration shifted gears and started defaulting on its aid program. Then Bush got out of it entirely in 2000, basically leaving NK with nothing really to lose. China and South Korea were both doing a lot to try and bring NK back into the international community. China actually set up a free trade zone with NK along its border, and SK reestablished railroad tracks and helped set up a deal where relatives who hadn't seen each other in 50 years were allowed to visit. Meanwhile Bush was ranting about an Axis Of Evil, and denied NK's actually reasonable request of direct negotiation, which Bush denied at every turn in favor of multilateralism, which Kim had made it clear he wa opposed to for some time.

NK is a crazy fucked up place, but now they are an even more crazy fucked up and dangerous place. General consensus for a while has been that they do have the bomb, although estimates vary as far as how many bombs they have and how far they could launch them. They had been following the same pattern for years -- act belligerent, wait until the foreign aid comes in, act conciliatory for a while, repeat.

It was a pretty good scam actually for both sides actually - for them, it's possibly cheaper in the long run than bothering to develop a functioning economy. For us, it's much safer to let the regime crumble over time than risk possible nuclear attack.

I know there's some sort of "principle" in dealing with places like NK in the neocon way, but it's overly idealistic and does not reflect the way the real world works, and now NK is practically uninvadable should that ever come to that anyway.

In short, Bush could have prevented this, and botched that terribly.
Get real Sir O.

Bush didn't just stop the payments for no reason and you know it.
Bush mentioning N. Korea as an "Axis Of Evil" wasn't a factor in their nuclear program either and you know it.

Unless you are really naive enough to believe N. Korea was so much more advanced than anyone could imagine as to develop 8-10 nuclear weapons since 2000, just because of Bush.

No, N. Korea had been fucking around with their nuke program for a very long time.
Giving them aid was just encouraging them to continue it and your current excuses almost, advocating their actions is senseless.
Jesus, you're not even reasonable, are you?
Reasonable?

Do you honestly think those blaming it on Bush have a point when you consider how long it takes a country in need of US aide to develop a nuclear program, much less have an arsenal of 8-10?

You're not well versed in the rationale of this point, are you?

A complete nuke program by a small, destitute country, building a self admitted arsenal of nuclear weapons in about 4 years?
Think for yourself instead of being fashionably resistant to anything Bush does for a change.
every country should have nuclear capabilities so all world leaders can sit around scared shitless of each other and then have to be nice
hedcold is by far the most political savvy person in this thread

NUKES FOR SAN MARNINO!
vote me for president in 2020!
I hope it's Condi vs. Hillary in 2008.

Aunt Jamima and rigid lesbian jokes for 4 years!!!
stop interupting the man who will soon be the fourth face on mt. rushmore. what else will be on your platform, canidate thrillhouse?
you are biggest jackass to grace these forums in quite a while
Hoon Wrote:Reasonable?

Do you honestly think those blaming it on Bush have a point when you consider how long it takes a country in need of US aide to develop a nuclear program, much less have an arsenal of 8-10?

You're not well versed in the rationale of this point, are you?

A complete nuke program by a small, destitute country, building a self admitted arsenal of nuclear weapons in about 4 years?
Think for yourself instead of being fashionably resistant to anything Bush does for a change.
You are a fucking baffoon. You are trying to argue with anyone who will actually try and talk to you. All you want to do is get pissed off at anyone so that you can spout pure republican GOP blather. You do not care that your government is fucking bloated like that bitch from What's Eating Gilbert Grape, nor do you care that it is regulating more of your life than you need.
fbdlingfrg Wrote:stop interupting the man who will soon be the fourth face on mt. rushmore. what else will be on your platform, canidate thrillhouse?
come on now, do i really need anything else?
joobies will make a fine first lady as well.
Arpikarhu Wrote:you are biggest jackass to grace these forums in quite a while
Luna told me she met you in person.
Apparently, your board status is all you have to be proud of.
Quote:Unless you are really naive enough to believe N. Korea was so much more advanced than anyone could imagine as to develop 8-10 nuclear weapons since 2000, just because of Bush.

WHAT THE FUCK??? They've been working on nukes for the longest time, no shit. Decades. Where did I say anything that even hinted at what you're saying?
The Jays Wrote:
Hoon Wrote:Reasonable?

Do you honestly think those blaming it on Bush have a point when you consider how long it takes a country in need of US aide to develop a nuclear program, much less have an arsenal of 8-10?

You're not well versed in the rationale of this point, are you?

A complete nuke program by a small, destitute country, building a self admitted arsenal of nuclear weapons in about 4 years?
Think for yourself instead of being fashionably resistant to anything Bush does for a change.
You are a fucking baffoon. You are trying to argue with anyone who will actually try and talk to you. All you want to do is get pissed off at anyone so that you can spout pure republican GOP blather. You do not care that your government is fucking bloated like that bitch from What's Eating Gilbert Grape, nor do you care that it is regulating more of your life than you need.
Was this thread labeled, "Lollipops For Retards"?

No. So why are you here?
I posed this question to Keyser (and Sir O) because though he and I are on different ends of the political spectrum, he's still intelligent.

You on the other hand tried to enter the debate, got leveled with reality and are now bitter about it. Your daily dose of politics via the MTV Newbreaks isn't sufficient enough to add to anything being said in this thread.
Use what you've learned here and stick to what you know.
That being B sides to both of the Good Charolette albums.




Edited By Hoon on 1108087222
Sir O Wrote:
Quote:Unless you are really naive enough to believe N. Korea was so much more advanced than anyone could imagine as to develop 8-10 nuclear weapons since 2000, just because of Bush.

WHAT THE FUCK??? They've been working on nukes for the longest time, no shit. Decades. Where did I say anything that even hinted at what you're saying?
From your citing of Buhs's inclusion of N. Korea in the "Axis of Evil" speech and the fact that you lay more blame on Bush than Clinton.

I'll give you this, though. Not many "leftists" or whatever you label yourself would admit Clinton was anything other than a saint.

But I don't think it's "mostly Bush's fault", in any way.
Obviously coddling and sending aide to someone who was obviously developing nukes during a supposed global de-escalation would be the exact thing opponenets would villanize the US for, if god forbid KJI would've developed and used them.

I believe the reason N. Korea wanted uni-latteral talks with the US was because they fear the current players in the multi-latteral talks. That being China, of course.
So the reason they asked for uni-latteral talks with the US alone was because Clinton gave them an impression that the US was soft and easily manipulated as long as we got the slightest result... no matter how meaningless.

My point.
Uni-latteral talks with the US would allow N. Korea to continue to develop nukes while they blew smoke up our ass.
But now, with China breathing down they're neck. They're not so comfortable.




Edited By Hoon on 1108087426
Quote:I'll give you this, though. Not many "leftists" or whatever you label yourself would admit Clinton was anything other than a saint.

completely untrue
I'm taking another timeout just to keep my head from exploding.
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