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And where do they both bat in the line-up? And what about OBP? Stolen Bases? If you're gonna take a cleanup over a leadoof, you're a pussy.

like i said, crosby, tejada and young are all better.

The Jays Wrote:And where do they both bat in the line-up? And what about OBP? Stolen Bases? If you're gonna take a cleanup over a leadoof, you're a pussy.

You are babbling.

OBP isn't the be-all. Look at Dellucci and Dunn. Not stellar hitters, they just are patient. Stolen bases are largely arbitrary. If Tejada were a slap hitter, like Jeter, he'd probably run more. If Texas's offense wasn't so sick, Dellucci and Young would probably run more, but why risk getting thrown out?

The best hitter normally bats in the 3 or 4, that's why they are there. Tejada is a better hitter than Jeter. You might be the only person on the planet who says otherwise.

I would definitely put Jeter in the top 5 in shortstops. He's a very good hitter, becoming an above average fielder, and he's so damn pretty.

crosby has a good range factor, plus he's also playing next to a gold glove third baseman in eric chavez who i would think (to lazy to look it up) gets to alot more balls to his left than most other third baseman do

Galt Wrote:
The Jays Wrote:And where do they both bat in the line-up? And what about OBP? Stolen Bases? If you're gonna take a cleanup over a leadoff, you're a pussy.
You are babbling.

OBP isn't the be-all. Look at Dellucci and Dunn. Not stellar hitters, they just are patient. Stolen bases are largely arbitrary. If Tejada were a slap hitter, like Jeter, he'd probably run more. If Texas's offense wasn't so sick, Dellucci and Young would probably run more, but why risk getting thrown out?

The best hitter normally bats in the 3 or 4, that's why they are there. Tejada is a better hitter than Jeter. You might be the only person on the planet who says otherwise.

I would definitely put Jeter in the top 5 in shortstops. He's a very good hitter, becoming an above average fielder, and he's so damn pretty.

First you say Jeter has horrible range. So I put up the current stats which show he has a higher range and his put outs, assists, and dp are comparable to the three other SS's that WBK pointed out. So then you just revert back to an arguement where Jeter sucked in the minors 10 years ago, thus then, he is a terrible shortstop today.

So then you wanna talk about his offense. For you, you think that the best players are those that get the rbis and hit for power, cleanup hitters. Just because Jeter can't generate power, that makes him worse than Tejada? They are two different types of batters. Jeter is a leadoff hitter. Tejada isn't. They each have a different spot in the lineup because they are two different types of hitters. For you, the best players are the ones who bat 3, 4, and 5 in the lineup. I don't agree with that.

OBP isn't the be-all when people like you are only looking for cleanup hitters to favor. OBP IS important when you bat 9, 1, and 2, because it is your job to get on base so that your power guys can knock you in.

ANd OBP isn't the be-all with Jeter, because, along with getting the walks, he gets the hits, and while he doesn't get the deep doubles or triples, he is able to put the ball where he wants it to go in order to get the job done, which is get on base. And, once on base, he's a threat to steal, so he keeps pitchers on their toes. I'm noty quite sure what you mean by "Stolen bases are largely arbitary." Do you mean that they just pull a number out of their ass, and say "yep, that's how many stolen bases he has"? Unless arbitrary to you means "depending on the circumstances," which, yes, then it would be true. Some of those circumstances would be a player's ability to run, to know what pitches are coming, how the pitcher's pick off move is, who's on the bases already. Are you trying to say that Jeter gets lucky when he steals a base?

If you combine his ability to field with his ability to produce, he is the better all around shortstop. He's not great at just one thing, and poor at the other. He gives you what you want your leadoff hitter to be, and he gives you what you want your shortstop to be.

OK. Let me catch my breath. Are you saying that Jeter is a better offensive shortstop than Miguel Tejada? Are you saying that. I mean, really? You're not just pulling my leg?

Tejada is so much better than Jeter it's not even worth a discussion. There is not a single metric on earth that you can say Jeter is better. It's not even close. Aside from "Well look how many rings Jeter has". Great, then Robert Horry is the best forward in basketball right now.

Wow, Jeter has 10 more runs. You think it's because Jeter is better than Tejada. I say it's probably more because Jeter has Arod, Sheffield, and Matsui driving him in, while Tejada has Sosa, Palmeiro, and Gibbons. You think that may be more of a reason?

You say Jeter's better because his OBP is .20 higher than Tejada. I say, I'll take that for the 20 more homers and 20 more doubles Tejada's going to give his this year. Well, better offense, and the fact that Tejada's historically been a much better fielder than Jeter too.

And I'm not clinging to Jeter's horrible fielding "10 years ago", I'm clinging to the fact that he's been a horrible fielder "for the last 10 years". I admitted that he's dramatically improved over the last 18 months from the worst in baseball, to better than average which is quite a feat.

I'm saying that leadoff hitters run, cleanup guys don't. That's why it's arbitrary. If Jeter were a cleanup guy he wouldn't run. Look at what happened to Soriano since he moved out of the cleanup spot? Is he any slower now than he was three years ago? No. It's arbitrary because it's largely dependant upon where you hit in the lineup. Yes, there are some anomolies, but it's generally true.

Jesus, you are such a homer, it's amazing. This "Is Jeter the both the best offensive and best defensive shortstop in baseball" argument is laughable and about as difficult to shoot down as when Arpi sold Imclone stock for a profit.

Quote:argument is laughable and about as difficult to shoot down as when Arpi sold Imclone stock for a profit.

don't mention his name, its been so peaceful with him away.

and I remember having this argument with galt last year about Jeter and even I have to agree that Tejada is the best SS is baseball today, I'd put jeter 2nd, then young, though either young or jeter could be 2nd. I havent seen enough of crosby to say anything. Lopez from cincinati looks promising as well.

Quote:This "Is Jeter the both the best offensive and best defensive shortstop in baseball" argument is laughable and about as difficult to shoot down as when Arpi sold Imclone stock for a profit.

I didn't say he was the best both offensively and defensively. I said he is a complete package, he is everything you want a leadoff shortstop to be. Yes, Tejada and Young give you better immediate offense, they knock in the rbis, they have the higher average. But on the field, this year, for as few erros Young has made, his range is much lower than Crosby, Tejada,. and Jeter. And, Jeter and Tejada have just about the same fielding percentage, so you look at range factor, and, look at that, Jeter has better range than all of them this year.

Last year, you tried to peg Jeter because his range was so low. How bout now, bitch?

You are the one who called Jeter the worst shortstop in the league. You don't think he's the best in the league, fine, but I'm allowed to think that, but you cannot come in here anymore and say that Jeter is the worst in the league, because if he's not first, then he's second.

Well, I actually said he was the worst fielding shortstop. I never besmirched his offense. He's solid, will end up with 3000 hits and well over a .300 BA when all is said and done, and would be a hall-of-famer whether not he won any rings.

He is not the ideal leadoff guy, but that's not his fault that the Yankees don't have a real leadoff hitter. Him, Mora and young would be the best #2 hitters in the league, probably Young, then Jeter, then Mora.

And the fact that he's no longer a defensive liability doesn't change the fact that he was for a decade. I put more weight into his career numbers than one season. Much like Renteria has historically been amazing and is having one bad year. Doesn't make him a poor fielding shorstop.

Now he's followed up last year's defensive improvement with more defensive improvements. It doesn't make non-existant that he was one of the worst defensive shortstop in baseball as long as he was in the league until last year.

Jeter has always been a top 5 all around short stop his entire career, galt just hates him cause he's so perfect in every way.

i'm going to the game tomorrow! or later today i guess woohoo

tejeda is one of the best overall hitters in the entire game. jeter is a good hitter, but he's not special like tejada. jeter has made huge strides in his defense, he always was good for a few web gem worthy plays like the dive into the stands against the sox and the ball he cut off and flipped to throw out giambi. jeter is a big clutch hitter. jeter has intangibles, good baseball instincts. he's a good leader. i still think yankee fans overrate him but i cant blame them, if jeter was a met i'd do the same.

Ok, well, to get off the topic of Jeter, and to loosen it up a bit in here, let's sit back, have a Coke and a smile, and let's all take a look back at 1999, where we can all be happy by looking at the beautiful stats of Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez highest strikeout/game totals.

Quote:Strikeouts:
Player Name Team SO Game IP H R ER BB IBB SO HR HBP WP BK S/R DEC
Randy Johnson ARI N 17 6-30-1999 8 7 2 2 0 0 17 1 0 0 0 CG L
Pedro Martinez BOS A 17 9-10-1999 9 1 1 1 0 0 17 1 1 0 0 CG W
Pedro Martinez BOS A 16 6- 4-1999 9 3 1 1 2 0 16 1 0 1 0 CG W
Randy Johnson ARI N 15 4-10-1999 9 6 3 3 2 0 15 2 0 0 0 CG W
Al Leiter NY N 15 8- 1-1999* 7 7 2 2 2 0 15 0 0 0 0 ST ND
Pedro Martinez BOS A 15 5- 7-1999 8 6 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 0 ST W
Pedro Martinez BOS A 15 5-12-1999 8 4 2 2 1 0 15 1 0 0 0 ST W
Pedro Martinez BOS A 15 8-24-1999 8 4 1 0 1 0 15 0 0 0 0 ST W
Pedro Martinez BOS A 15 9- 4-1999 8 2 0 0 3 0 15 0 0 0 0 ST W
Randy Johnson ARI N 14 6- 9-1999 7 10 6 6 3 0 14 1 1 0 0 ST W
Randy Johnson ARI N 14 6-25-1999 9 5 1 1 2 0 14 0 0 0 0 CG L
Randy Johnson ARI N 14 8-31-1999 8 4 2 1 1 0 14 1 0 0 0 ST L
Pedro Martinez BOS A 14 7- 7-1999 8 7 3 3 2 0 14 0 1 0 0 CG L
Pedro Martinez BOS A 14 9-15-1999* 7 8 2 2 1 0 14 0 0 1 0 ST ND
Shane Reynolds HOU N 14 8-15-1999 9 5 2 2 0 0 14 2 0 0 0 CG L
Dave Burba CLE A 13 7-21-1999 8 5 3 3 2 0 13 2 0 0 0 ST ND
Roger Clemens NY A 13 6-17-1999 7 9 3 3 1 0 13 1 0 0 0 ST L
Orlando Hernandez NY A 13 8-28-1999 8 3 1 1 2 1 13 1 0 0 0 ST ND
Randy Johnson ARI N 13 9- 5-1999 7 7 5 5 1 0 13 2 0 0 0 ST ND
Pedro Martinez BOS A 13 5- 1-1999 7 5 1 1 3 0 13 0 1 0 0 ST W
Eric Milton MIN A 13 9-11-1999 9 0 0 0 2 0 13 0 0 0 0 CG W
Curt Schilling PHI N 13 7- 4-1999 7 5 2 2 0 0 13 2 0 0 0 ST W
Aaron Sele TEX A 13 8-12-1999 7 8 3 3 2 0 13 1 1 0 0 ST L

and sosa was a power threat and the yanks were a dynasty and the towers were still standing and I had a life, good times.

sosa was the biggest hulk of a human i had ever seen in person. i swear i had never seen something so hard and massive standing right before me.

Quote:i had never seen something so hard and massive standing right before me.

So little time.

Quote:i swear i had never seen something so hard and massive standing right before me.

Keyser Soze Wrote:sosa was the biggest hulk of a human i had ever seen in person.

i knew you'd have a field day with that.

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