CDIH

Quote:Just because you aren't directly affected doesn't mean you shouldn't have an opinion.

It's my opinion that we should mind our own business. When we have children getting shitty educations in this country, I couldn't give a shit about what's happening in Israel. Like I said, get your own house straight before you worry about others'.

Quote:Just because you aren't directly affected doesn't mean you shouldn't have an opinion.

Of course it does! Who am I to butt into someone else's business. Let people sort their own shit out and quit trying to save the world. If you want to do that...put an S on your chest and wear tights and a cape. Silly fuck.

hi!
ok i just finished writing a report for class on arafat. here's what i came up with. first of all, he was born in cairo 1929, not palestiner or any disputed areas. he was thrown out of every country he's lived in (egypt, jordan, and lebanon). in 1982, lebanon, arafat used 10 year olold boys strapped with rocket propelled grenades to fight off the israeli soldiers. israel was told not to fire at teh children causing the death of thousands of soldiers. arafat personally sent his 2 top aids to hijack the achille lauro criuse ship. his head of security in 1998 said that hamas is part of the paleastinian liberation movement,. that is a direct violation of oslo, in addition, the plo has not removed the call for destroying the state of israel, like they were supposed to do forst thing according to their speach at the Un in 1988 and the oslo accords in 1993. they never arrested terrorists because theyfelt they weren't terrorists. the man responsible for the hijacking of the air france plane in 1976, is a member of the palestinian legislative council. the man responsible for the achille lauro, is also a top ranking official of the palestinian authority, he is wanted by the us, italy, and israel.
so now, who should the us supposrt???

arpi doesnt know jack shit about the subject, don't let his know it all attitude fool you

this is from an israeli news source, do what you want with it.

Quote:Reporters Back Down From Jenin
"Massacre" Reports
In Jenin, too, the army has withdrawn its forces
from the terrorist stronghold neighborhood in which
the fierce battles of the previous two weeks took
place. The soldiers continue to surround the area.

After almost two weeks of "Jenin Massacre!"
headlines, the world press has been forced to face
the truth: There was none. Journalist David Bedein
of Israel Resource News Agency reports that
since Sunday, when the IDF began allowing
reporters into Jenin, the real story has turned out to
be somewhat less dramatic than that which some
of them had been reporting. Washington Post
correspondent Molly Moore wrote, "Interviews
with residents inside the camp and international aid
workers who were allowed here for the first time
today indicated that no evidence has yet surfaced
to support allegations by Palestinian groups and aid
organizations of large-scale massacres or
executions by Israeli troops."

This contrasted strongly, for instance, with the way
James Bennet opened his report from Jenin for
The New York Times last Friday: "Palestinians
here describe bodies cut in pieces, bodies scooped
up by bulldozers and buried in mass graves, bodies
deliberately concealed under collapsed buildings.
They describe people drinking out of sewers and
people used by Israeli soldiers as human shields."
Bedein notes that Bennet's report "did very little to
challenge the tendentiousness and questionable
nature of such 'eyewitness' testimony."

Col. Gal Hirsh, Head of Operations in the IDF
Central Command, explained that Jenin remained a
closed military zone even after the fighting was
over because, "We are trying to find all these
bodies and trying to remove the booby traps from
them... It is very complicated, very dangerous...
We are trying to take all the explosives, all the
hand grenades, all the booby traps from the bodies
and the houses..." Several bodies were in fact
found to have been booby-trapped.

The PLO's WAFA press service, however, took
advantage of Israel's refusal to allow the media
into Jenin, making unfounded claims of "500 dead
Palestinians piled up in the streets." Bedein notes
that organizations such as Physicians for Human
Rights and Amnesty International uncritically
believed these allegations, and were followed
dutifully by international media outlets, many of
which "devoted huge amounts of ink to such
unverified tales of conspiracies, rapes, executions,
and war crimes... The credibility of Palestinian
'eyewitness testimony' was barely questioned,
despite the PLO track record of fabricating false
claims. Who will ever forget the fallacious reports
from the Red Crescent in Lebanon back in June
1982 that the IDF had killed 10,000 people and
made 600,000 homeless?"

Bedein writes that tens of "European media outlets
and Arab foreign ministries described the fighting
in Jenin in terms of 'genocide,' 'unprecedented
humanitarian disaster,' 'Sabra and Shatilla #2,' 'A
campaign of revenge and murder, 'Nazi ethnical
cleansing,' and worse. European articles focused
mainly on the physical damage to buildings due to
Israeli tanks moving through the camp, and failed
to mention the fact that many of the buildings and
streets were rigged with explosives which were
set off by the many terrorist cells operating in the
refuge camp.

In general, Israel's comments on what was
actually happening in Jenin were mostly ignored by
world media. In a briefing last Friday, Col. Hirsh
said,
"When you think of the term refugee camp, you
think of poor and helpless people. This is not the
case! Jenin Refugee Camp was actually a strong
combat zone - a real military and terrorist
infrastructure. These people decided to fight, and
we had to fight back... I've heard the rumors of
500-600 Palestinians dead. These are lies. We had
no choice but to destroy the terrorist infrastructure
- everyday there were terrorists' acts dispatched
from Jenin Refugee Camp. The operation in Jenin
cost us the lives of 23 soldiers and many were
injured. I regret that some Palestinian civilians
were injured and some were killed. We were
fighting against armed terrorists. We asked the
Palestinian civilians to evacuate their homes so
they would not get hurt, some chose not to. Most
of the Palestinians that were killed were armed
terrorists; many had explosive devices strapped to
their bodies. We found a lot of evidence of
terrorist activity, for example, labs for explosive
devices. We are talking about an organized
terrorist infrastructure throughout Judea and
Samaria."

"The media were forced to cope with the fact that
a 'massacre' was turned into a few dozen
casualties," Bedein concludes, "but some reporters
just could not bring themselves to 'adjust' their
story to the facts on the ground."
Reporters Back Down From Jenin "Massacre"
Reports
In Jenin, too, the army has withdrawn its forces
from the terrorist stronghold neighborhood in which
the fierce battles of the previous two weeks took
place. The soldiers continue to surround the area.

After almost two weeks of "Jenin Massacre!"
headlines, the world press has been forced to face
the truth: There was none. Journalist David Bedein
of Israel Resource News Agency reports that
since Sunday, when the IDF began allowing
reporters into Jenin, the real story has turned out to
be somewhat less dramatic than that which some
of them had been reporting. Washington Post
correspondent Molly Moore wrote, "Interviews
with residents inside the camp and international aid
workers who were allowed here for the first time
today indicated that no evidence has yet surfaced
to support allegations by Palestinian groups and aid
organizations of large-scale massacres or
executions by Israeli troops."

This contrasted strongly, for instance, with the way
James Bennet opened his report from Jenin for
The New York Times last Friday: "Palestinians
here describe bodies cut in pieces, bodies scooped
up by bulldozers and buried in mass graves, bodies
deliberately concealed under collapsed buildings.
They describe people drinking out of sewers and
people used by Israeli soldiers as human shields."
Bedein notes that Bennet's report "did very little to
challenge the tendentiousness and questionable
nature of such 'eyewitness' testimony."

Col. Gal Hirsh, Head of Operations in the IDF
Central Command, explained that Jenin remained a
closed military zone even after the fighting was
over because, "We are trying to find all these
bodies and trying to remove the booby traps from
them... It is very complicated, very dangerous...
We are trying to take all the explosives, all the
hand grenades, all the booby traps from the bodies
and the houses..." Several bodies were in fact
found to have been booby-trapped.

The PLO's WAFA press service, however, took
advantage of Israel's refusal to allow the media
into Jenin, making unfounded claims of "500 dead
Palestinians piled up in the streets." Bedein notes
that organizations such as Physicians for Human
Rights and Amnesty International uncritically
believed these allegations, and were followed
dutifully by international media outlets, many of
which "devoted huge amounts of ink to such
unverified tales of conspiracies, rapes, executions,
and war crimes... The credibility of Palestinian
'eyewitness testimony' was barely questioned,
despite the PLO track record of fabricating false
claims. Who will ever forget the fallacious reports
from the Red Crescent in Lebanon back in June
1982 that the IDF had killed 10,000 people and
made 600,000 homeless?"

Bedein writes that tens of "European media outlets
and Arab foreign ministries described the fighting
in Jenin in terms of 'genocide,' 'unprecedented
humanitarian disaster,' 'Sabra and Shatilla #2,' 'A
campaign of revenge and murder, 'Nazi ethnical
cleansing,' and worse. European articles focused
mainly on the physical damage to buildings due to
Israeli tanks moving through the camp, and failed
to mention the fact that many of the buildings and
streets were rigged with explosives which were
set off by the many terrorist cells operating in the
refuge camp.

In general, Israel's comments on what was
actually happening in Jenin were mostly ignored by
world media. In a briefing last Friday, Col. Hirsh
said,
"When you think of the term refugee camp, you
think of poor and helpless people. This is not the
case! Jenin Refugee Camp was actually a strong
combat zone - a real military and terrorist
infrastructure. These people decided to fight, and
we had to fight back... I've heard the rumors of
500-600 Palestinians dead. These are lies. We had
no choice but to destroy the terrorist infrastructure
- everyday there were terrorists' acts dispatched
from Jenin Refugee Camp. The operation in Jenin
cost us the lives of 23 soldiers and many were
injured. I regret that some Palestinian civilians
were injured and some were killed. We were
fighting against armed terrorists. We asked the
Palestinian civilians to evacuate their homes so
they would not get hurt, some chose not to. Most
of the Palestinians that were killed were armed
terrorists; many had explosive devices strapped to
their bodies. We found a lot of evidence of
terrorist activity, for example, labs for explosive
devices. We are talking about an organized
terrorist infrastructure throughout Judea and
Samaria."

"The media were forced to cope with the fact that
a 'massacre' was turned into a few dozen
casualties," Bedein concludes, "but some reporters
just could not bring themselves to 'adjust' their
story to the facts on the ground."

btw, i was told to watch "lawrence of arabia" cuz it's topical.

How many times did you copy that?
My head hurts from reading the same thing over and over!
(btw...Very interesting...)

McBourbon did I say anything about intervening into the situation? My opinion is we shouldn't support EITHER of them. Because getting involved is what screwed it up in the first place. But however you are allowed to have an opinion. I think the Northern Irish should have independence but I don't think our government should have anything to do with that either. But then again I guess having an opinion about world events is a bad thing.

And cunt I agree. At worst Arafat is a terrorist. At best he's an ineffective leader who can't keep the chickens in the stable.

Quote:I guess having an opinion about world events is a bad thing.

Not bad.....just a foolish waste of time. As stated....worry about the fucked up mess your own life is before concerning yourself with the woes of the world. I look out for me first and try to keep my shit in order, and my life is still fucked up. That means one of two things:
1) I suck at organizational skills OR
2) I got too much shit in my life to deal with which keeps me from worrying about some other person or group of people

Kid was right. Let's get things straight here in the US before we worry about anywhere else. Then when our mess is cleaned up, we can provide support or supervise the clean up of someone else's mess.

Quote:And cunt I agree

wow am, i never thought i would hear those words from you!!
and yes arafat, father of palestine, is a bigger terrorist than bin laden. as soon as the palestinians choose a new leader, there will be peace. you can't have peace with someone who wants to see you destroyed.
here's someething regarding hamas and the plo:

Quote:PA Cabinet Minister Hanan Ashrawi said: 'It's not up to israel to decide or define who is our enemy. Hamas is not the enemy, it's part of the political fabric.'
Abbas Zakai of Fatah said: '[Hamas's attacks] strengthen the Palestinian position... It would be dangerous to stop these actions, because the accords will crumble if there is nothing to make Israel go forward.'
PA Justice Minister Freih Abu Medein stated: 'The PA and the [Hamas] opposition complement eachother...We regard Hamas and Islamic Jihad as national elements... The main enemy, now and forever, is Israel.'

how can there be peace, these are arafat's top aids, all of whom were part of the oslo accords.

when chicks talk politics, it's sooooooooo not hot.:clueless:

hey, i know what i'm talking about, and really i don't talk politics when i'm away from my computer... i swear!!

Most times...
When she's away from her 'puter...
She's not talkin at all...
Her mowf am full. :blow:

Quote:Kid was right. Let's get things straight here in the US before we worry about anywhere else. Then when our mess is cleaned up, we can provide support or supervise the clean up of someone else's mess.

Then maybe we could stop funding Israel then. Maybe we could use that money to get our own house straight hmm.

And ct I've never been a supporter of the PLO. I'm one to think both sides are full of shit.

And Osama is a real homey yo. He know it is to be oppressed by the crackas.

i don't claim to really have a whole lot of knowledge as to what's going on over there. but, since i'm entitled to my opinion i'm going to give it. obviously none of us knows the whole story. any media reports that we receive are going to be biased and will make the situation seem completely different depending on who's doing the reporting. but it's impossible that one side is telling the whole truth and the other is lying. obviously there are atrocious acts being committed by both sides and innocent people are caught in the middle of it all.

ct, i don't think anyone is defending arafat here, i think it's clear to anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence that he has no interest in finding any kind of compromise or peace agreement. at the same time, it doesn't seem as though the isreali government is either.

arpi, i'm dissappointed in you. the people who've posted in this thread definitely don't appear to be attacking the jews, or supporting the palestinians. i understand that it's a very emotional subject, but for you to call them and/or their parents "jew haters" is just fucking ridiculous.

as far as the us goes, i don't think they should be giving financial support to either side. it seems to me that they've backed the isreali government and ignored the plight of the palestinian civilians. the only role any outside country should have here is to aid the un in finding some kind of peace accord. choosing sides is only going to worsen the situation.

Quote:arpi, i'm dissappointed in you. the people who've posted in this thread definitely don't appear to be attacking the jews, or supporting the palestinians. i understand that it's a very emotional subject, but for you to call them and/or their parents "jew haters" is just fucking ridiculous.

And to that let me add a hearty FUCK YOU! :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :fuckoff:

Anybody see the FOOTAGE of 70 dead including children lined up for mass burial? Anybody see the wide shots of entire neighborhoods leveled? Anybody see the family of 8 that was in their home when it collapsed on top of them? Only two were pulled alive form the rubble two days later when rescuers were finally allowed into the area.

And contrary to international law, civilians were NOT allowed to flee out of the combat zone. Only from one combat zone to another. Combined with the complete denial of any humanitarian aid, this was an atrocity.

Of course the Palestinians have inflated the numbers. Of course Arafat's a terrorist. But that does not justify the combined punishment of ALL Palestinians.

And your surprised the news media went with the most sensationalistic interpretation of what they were able to hear and see? I'm not. That's why I take NOTHING in the media at face value.

And as for this unbeleivable isolationist movement I see here: WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING?

Have you LOOKED at the stock market lately? Do you have any grasp of how interconnected the world really is today? You can not allow a major conflict to go on in the world without having a major impact on the rest of the world.

The US has only two options:
1. Pull back all aid to Isreali and do nothing. Then they'll ALL be dead before the years over. Isreali will run out of food, ammo, etc. and be overwhelmed by being attacked form all sides and then Isreali will use it's nuclear arsenal and the entire Middle East will be a radioactive wasteland. Just hope the prevailing winds aren't blowing over any other populated areas.

2. Use every piece of leverage the US has, force Isreali out of the occupied territories and replace them with US/UN peace keeping troops who will secure a Palestinian state and remove Arafat from power along with every other known terrorist and replace them with a legitimate governement. Take over and treat them like Afghanistan.

Polite doplomacy will not work. We've been trying it for decades.

And just to fill you in on Sharon, he is well known for his complete support of the extremists Isreali's who have settled in the middle of the occupied territories, displacing (bulldozing) Palestinian communities, because they believe it's their God given right to all of Isreali. The extremists settlers are a HUGE problem to any peace process.

Come on Arpi. Got any balls left to debate or are you just going to come in and call me an anti-semite for having an opinion that differs from Isreali policy? :fuckoff:

in 1996, the pm netanyahu refused aid from the us for almost a year due to the plo's violation of oslo, and our refusal to do anything. israel can survive without us aid, the palestinians can't. it is a fact that arafat has no long terms for his people. he was offered 95% of the west bank and gaza with 5% of israel proper to compensate and he refused. it's sad that his people have to suffer, but the best thing israel can do is exile arafat, again. let them find someone responsible that wants peace, as long as arafat is in power, civilians will die.
crx - since the madrid confrence in 1991 there have beeb 6 israeli prime ministers to 1 arafat. all of whom showed some willingness to talk peace with the plo. even sharon has backed down on his original demands, he cut his demand from 10 days of quiet to 7, to immediate. but he;'s consistant when he says no peace under fire. as soon as the plo calls a cease fire, he's willing to talk.
am, you think that sharon is a terrorist cuz of what happened in lebanon, but did you know that he was the general in charge of removing the jewish settlements in the saini? he went in an buldozed the jews out of house and home. he might not have been a supporter of oslo, but he's not against peace with the arabs, he hates the plo and even more arafat.
the problem isn't really with israel, it's arafat can't lead his people. he isn't leading his people. if there was a bus bombing every week in ny, how long beofre we would respond, and how do you think we would respond? with house to house searches? or like we did in afgahnastan, and send in the daiy cutters? how come no one ever talks about the civilian casualtues in afgahanstan? do you think there were none? i don't think so, whereever we bombed, was a closed military zone, and no media was allowed in. that's exactly what israel did in jenin, and in case anyone missed it, i posted an article about this a few posts ago.

Daisy cutters were only used in mountain valleys and confirmed bases not on towns. And I saw plenty of reporters in flack jackets riding around the country and videoing the bombs dropping. If reporters were kept out of an area, it's becasue we were about to drop bombs on the area and the reporters would have been killed.

And we never stopped the Red Cross from giving aid. We ENCOURAGED it.

We worked with the locals to overthrow a corrupt and oppresive government and we are still working to help the civilians.

I am very proud of what the US did in Afghanistan. It's something we should be consistent about and move into the Palestinian territories.

Arafat has already said many times he wanted UN Peacekeepers to take over the area. Time to call his bluff. We go in, repair all the damage, secure a Palestinian state, and get rid of Arafat. Put him on trial and have him convicted as a terrorist along with all the other terrorists in his cabinet. Then hold democratic elections.

Isreal can not do this. Their very presence in the territories causes more violence. Sharon says he won't stop until the Palestinian's stop fighting. Well, as long as the IDF is inside Palestinian lands, even the non-terrorists are going to fight because they believe they are defending their families and their land.

Sharon has said he will pull out this Sunday. If he keeps his promise, then this is the first opportunity for peace. Powell needs to get back there and start the process. And play rough.

dent, the first known refugee camps ever documented in israel, by the international communities came in 1972, not '84 or '67. they were set up for the palestinian refugees who were kicked out of jordan with arafat. israel gave the refugees medical attention and food. the palestinian authority has yet to do this for their people, still today. the plo has called for the distruction of israel and the zionist infidels since fatah was established in 1958 and it is written in the plo charter in 1965. long before the 6 day war and the "occupied territories". as soon as the palestinian people will realize that their leader is nothing more than a murderer/terrorist. there will be peace.
btw, about 3 weeks ago in hebron, a palestinian police man shot and killed 2 international un observers, and injured another. why should we endanger any more lives??