CDIH

any comments on the church of the naitivity? 200 armed palestinians holding up close to 30 clergey men/women wihout food, and not allowing them to go free. that to me, sounde like a hostage situation.

Are you so sure it's a hostage situation? I've heard reports that the priests stayed in the church because they wanted to protect it. However I'll wait after the fact for the 100% truth.

am, i don't think that not leaving the church for food or medical attention would be by choice. israel has been ordered not to shoot at any holy spots, synagogues(sp), churches, or mosques, or schools. at the beginning of march, palestinian millitants were quoted as saying "look at what cowards the israelis are, we're standing here in manger square, and they won't even shoot us." who's the cowards? i think the militants cuz they're hiding where they know they won't be attacked. all terrorists are cowards for the most part, imo.

damn it, how many times to I have to say BOTH sides are wrong in this conflict. Or do you just pay attention to the parts you don't like?

First, the point I was disagreeing with was this one:

Quote:"Why not contrast this to the huge damage (in comparison) wrought by the
powerful bombs dropped by planes - an option Israel did not use in Jenin,
but which American and Europeans used in every war including Afghanistan,
to avoid risking their soldiers in such operations. No other army in the
world would have acted as the IDF.

The use of large yield explosives is not possible in the occupied territories without massive civilian casualties. It was possible in both Afghanistan & the Gulf War. In Afghanistan, AGAIN, we did not target population centers. In the Gulf War only smart bombs were used on high priority targets like anti-aircraft guns, radar stations, and military communications.

And yes, civilians got killed in both conflicts. But we did everything possible to minimize those numbers. I still haven't seen a count on civilian dead in Afghanistan. And almost all the civilian deaths in the Gulf were due to failures of the smart-bomb guidance systems.

And we used no heavy bombing in either Haiti or Panama. In fact, Panama was the first major use of Special Operations forces instead of bombing to take out major installation, airports, and ships.

And we can also talk about the British in the Falkland Islands where they only used strategic bombing on specific sights because the civilians were on their side!

The point is bullshit.

And I agree with AM. Church officials have been in contact with the clergy inside the Church of the Nativity. They are staying by choice. And the lack of food and medical aid is due to a blockade by the IDF in an attempt to starve out the Palestinian militants. Classic siege strategy.


And Kid, you don't care becasue your a typical self-centered prick who doesn't care about anything that doesn't have an immediate and tangible effect on your life. If you don't care, you should have no problem going to read something else.

Get a grip AD, I read it because I wanted to. I commented because I wanted to. If you don't like my comments, don't read them.

Now, you better go catch your high horse... he walked away when you stepped down to post your message. PFFFT! and you call me a prick?

Quote:The use of large yield explosives is not possible in the occupied territories without massive civilian casualties. It was possible in both Afghanistan & the Gulf War. In Afghanistan, AGAIN, we did not target population centers. In the Gulf War only smart bombs were used on high priority targets like anti-aircraft guns, radar stations, and military communications.

And yes, civilians got killed in both conflicts. But we did everything possible to minimize those numbers. I still haven't seen a count on civilian dead in Afghanistan. And almost all the civilian deaths in the Gulf were due to failures of the smart-bomb guidance systems.

dent, america didn't think twice when dropping nukes on japan, were they right in doing so?
war is war, civillians are ganna die, when you have terrorist fighting from schools and homes, civillians are bound to die. israel gave the people of jenin 36 hours to get out of the city, and as it is, today's jerusalem post said that the leader of hamas from jenin left in that 36 hour warning. it's true that israel isn't fighting against an army, but these are the same people who were celebrating in the streets on sept 11. terrorism is terrorism, it doesn't matter where it happens.
about the church, anyone here the catholic church talk up when more than 20,000 christians were maimed and murdered by arafat and the plo when he set up his mini palestine in west beirut from 1972-1982?? they didn't say a word.

kid, i know, chicks talking political talk isn't hot!!

**edit: if america cuts off all aid to israel, and gives the palestinians all of their normal funding plus that of israel, do you think that arafat or his henchmen will do anything to better the lives of the palestinian people? since gaza city was turned over to arafat in 1996, there has not been a single street paved by the plo/pa. that's almost 6 years without anything being done to better the lives of the palestinian people in gaza, there's about 20 other towns, including jenin (before 2 weeks ago) that are in the same or worse situations then that. where's the world crying for them? why is it only when israel goes in, do they say something??



Edited By Cunt-Twat on April 21 2002 at 7:33

Quote:If you don't like my comments, don't read them.

Does anybody find it strange who is saying this?

As for the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki I don't think those were right. Hirsoshima was specifically chosen because it was undamaged. The nuclear bombs were a waste of human lives. Even after two nuclear bombs Japan was unwilling to surrender. The reason Japan surrendered was because Soviet troops were comping rapidly towards Japan from Manchuria. The Soviets scared the Japanese more than the Americans did so that's why they surrendered to the US.

As for your comments to the aid to the PLO. I think we should cut off funding to BOTH the PLO and Israel. They have showed they don't deserve US taxpayer money.

Quote:but these are the same people who were celebrating in the streets on sept 11.

Why? Because we payed for the bullets that killed their brothers. Not to hard to imagine why they'd hate the U.S. I don't hate them for it. I pity them.

Think about this. Why are Arafat, Bin Ladin, and all the others so successful at recruiting? I mean, if someone came around and tried to start a new Christian Crusade or something, 98% of the population would tell them to go fuck themselves. (You always get a few who want to run off and join a cult or become skinheads.) Why? becasue we're prosperous and happy.

(Most skinheads come from poor neighborhoods with no future.)

The root casue of terrorism is poverty and misery. It's a breeding ground for the discontent. Just mix in some deep resentment against someone else, a little religious furvor, and you've got a terrorist.

Then, when the people you point at saying "they're evil" fight back with excessive force (Isreal's standard military doctrine) you can run around showing how they proved your point. And the cycle of violence, and fresh recruits, begins.

Isreal will NEVER solve it's problems by rolling in tanks and blowing up buildings. NEVER.

Quote:where's the world crying for them? why is it only when israel goes in, do they say something??

Because people only take interest when things are blowing up. You don't see any outcry over the poverty in Africa do you? Heard anyone complain about the civil war that's been going on in the Congo for the last twenty years and has claimed over 2 million lives in the last ten years?

Why? Because people are selfish and self-centered and so are governments. If the jews had picked option number 2 and set up their homeland in Madagascar instead of the Middle East, the U.S. wouldn't be giving them billions every year and if they had trouble there, they'd be left to their own devices, live or die.

The interest of governments is "enlightened self-interest". In other words, the Mussad provides better intelligence on the Middle East than the CIA, MI6, and the GRU combined. And no country wants to lose the flow of oil coming out of the region. Isreal trades intelligence for cash and support.

The only thing I regret is holding the human race to a higher standard.


And Kid, I really couldn't give a fuck.

Quote:Think about this. Why are Arafat, Bin Ladin, and all the others so successful at recruiting? I mean, if someone came around and tried to start a new Christian Crusade or something, 98% of the population would tell them to go fuck themselves. (You always get a few who want to run off and join a cult or become skinheads.) Why? becasue we're prosperous and happy.

bin laden is a billion aire, he's not poor or desperate. the average person in the middle east has no money, screw the palestinians for a second. saudi arabia is one of the wealthiest countries in the wolrd, and their people live like rats, same with iraq, and jordan. my grandfather pointed something out to me, that never dawned on me. he was in israel,and he went to eilat in the south, and he was on a boat in the red sea, he asked why is it when you look out of the red sea, and you can see jordan, egypt/sinai, israel and iraq, that israel is the only country showing signs of life? jordan has nothing in that area, sinai is a shit hole, i've been twice, can't say what's going on in iraq, cuz i don't know. jordan and egypt both get pleanty of money from the us, yet their people live like shit. and neither of these countries do anything for america, atleast iraq has oil.

Quote:Why? Because people are selfish and self-centered and so are governments. If the jews had picked option number 2 and set up their homeland in Madagascar instead of the Middle East, the U.S. wouldn't be giving them billions every year and if they had trouble there, they'd be left to their own devices, live or die.

first of all, it was uganda, not madagascar. but did it ever accur to you that perhaps the jews chose israel for historic and holy significance? dent, you should really read up on history before you post, you sound like an idiot.
i'll be more than happy if america cuts off aid to israel, they don't need american money, but israel will in return, cut off all medical aid, techonlogy, and intelligence. what then will america do? israel is more helpful to the us than europe and the arab world are.

kid, it is hot!

Quote:Rising concern over anti-Semitism, as much as anything, has quashed debate among American Jews over Israeli politics and policies.

On Thursday, at a Brooklyn College class for retirees on current events, Helen Rosenberg, 86, an atheist, recalled a recent conversation with a friend in which she expressed sorrow that Palestinians were being killed. "That woman turned on me," Ms. Rosenberg said. "She said that I wanted Israel ruined."

After class, Barbara Rosenthal, a retired schoolteacher, said of Ms. Rosenberg, "I felt like telling that woman, `When they come for you, they're going to come whether you're atheist or religious.' "

Aryeh Cohen, a Talmud professor at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, said critiques of Israel had been chilled in forums where there used to be open debate. Critics of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon were scarce at the Washington rally.

"It's really painful for me to feel completely alienated from a rally in support of Israel," said Professor Cohen, who lived in Israel for 12 years and fought in the 1982 war in Lebanon. "On a day-to-day basis, among colleagues and students, I do find myself in situations where I don't necessarily say what I think."

NY Times

Quote:And Kid, you don't care becasue your a typical self-centered prick who doesn't care about anything that doesn't have an immediate and tangible effect on your life.

It will soon. It will affect all of us whether we want it to or not.

First, my point was that Bin Ladin, Arafat and the others USE POVERTY AS A TOOL to recruit people for their self-centered causes. The Saudi's, Egyptian, and other governments use poverty to keep the populace under control. Otherwise, they'd rise up and demand a dmeocratic government to replace the autocratic dictatorships that rule them now.

Quote:they don't need american money, but israel will in return, cut off all medical aid, techonlogy, and intelligence. what then will america do?

Don't need 3 Billion dollars? Right.

And since when has the US needed Isreali medical aide? US has the best medical research in the world. Hands down.

I already made the point about Isreal selling intelligence. Or did you just skip over that again?

As for tech. What did we get? The uzi? Some farm crops that grow well in dry soil? Some other genetically modified stock? Wouldn't hurt us too much.

Quote:first of all, it was uganda, not madagascar. but did it ever accur to you that perhaps the jews chose israel for historic and holy significance?

No shit Sherlock! And here I thought it was because they have a deep affinity for building sandcastles and floating in the Dead Sea.

So I mixed up the names. Big deal. Same hemisphere. And my points still valid. The world wouldn't give a fuck if they lived in either area.

Quote:Does anybody find it strange who is saying this?

Will I ever figure out those damn (sarcasm) tages?

Quote:It will soon. It will affect all of us whether we want it to or not.

Really? How so? In oil prices or tax on matzoh? < joke!

Quote:kid, it is hot!

Um, no. A woman that can hold her own in any argument is mildly attractive, I'll give you that.

Why are we sitting here wondering why Dubya has completely fucked up dealing with the Israelis? Israel’s defiance of Bush’s wishes to pull out of the West Bank has severely weakened our position in the Middle East. The Arab world has snubbed the Bush Administration and our inability to control the Israeli government has convinced the Arab world that they must deal with Israel directly. Sharon has made a huge mistake in demonstrating that Israel will act on it’s own in a way it sees fit. We have lost all credibility in the region. Dubya is a looser. His decent performance in the days after 9/11 are long since behind him. He has no foreign policy skills and his double talk has confused even our staunchest allies. He continues to try to build a case against Sadaam, and Sadaam plays him against world opinion like a school child. We are exposing our weakness to the world. The weakness is that we cannot support a sustained conflict against an enemy in that region because we have no place to stage and launch an offensive without support of nations in the region. The Arab world will not support an offensive against an Arab brother. The price they paid for doing it last time was too great. Dubya does not see this and allows Israel to weaken our position with them. Once the Arab world starts an offensive against Israel, it will be bloody and Israel will loose. The US will not be able to defend Israel without significant loss of American lives and American interests in the region.

OAS = Most insightful person in this thread.

So age really does bring wisdom, huh?

Quote:So age really does bring wisdom, huh?

Well that and aches and pains.

{}

Quote:Once the Arab world starts an offensive against Israel, it will be bloody and Israel will loose. The US will not be able to defend Israel without significant loss of American lives and American interests in the region.

much like israel lost all the other wars??

Quote:A woman that can hold her own in any argument is mildly attractive, I'll give you that.

:loveya:

The Arab world did not go all out against Israel in the past because of concern about US involvement and because of US pressure. Now that the Sharon has exposed our weakness, the Arab world will not back down. Egypt and Syria is a very formidal opponent for Israel. An attack from both nations along with attacks from Hezballah is more than Israel can deal with. After Sharon has shunned us, Congress will have a difficult time supporting Bush in supporting a military initiative to support Israel.

CT, you are fun to debate with. We should try it after wild sex sometime. :roflmao:

Quote:The Arab world did not go all out against Israel in the past because of concern about US involvement and because of US pressure. Now that the Sharon has exposed our weakness, the Arab world will not back down. Egypt and Syria is a very formidal opponent for Israel. An attack from both nations along with attacks from Hezballah is more than Israel can deal with. After Sharon has shunned us, Congress will have a difficult time supporting Bush in supporting a military initiative to support Israel.

in 1948 pretty much all the arab world faught agaoinst israel in some way or another. hizbollah can be easily taken care with israel going into syria and lebanon at the sametime. syria's not stupid enough to start a war with israel, they're strongest "military" is hizbolah, they don't have a strong army, neither does egypt or jordan. israel's fine with fighting their immediate neighbors, it's iran and iraq that's the problem. personally, iran is bigger problem than any other country in the world. they support al queda, hizbolah, hamas, islamic jihad, and the plo - all on the us' list of terrorist organizations!!! forget saddam, take care of iran.

Quote:CT, you are fun to debate with. We should try it after wild sex sometime.

all i need is a soda!! :bouncer: :fucking: :blow: {}

Quote:THE LIES NEVER STOP

Sharon Nader Sloan, Esq. Lebanese-American, 19 April 2002

On Friday, April 12, Yasser Arafat spoke from his compound in Ramallah, via his cell phone, to a cathedral in Egypt packed with 5,000 Christian copts. He created an outburst of applause and adulation when he told them that the 200 killers holed up in the Church of the Nativity were there to protect the Christian “holy” site from the Israeli invaders. He vowed to protect, to the death, all holy Christian and Muslim sites in “holy” Jerusalem. He then continued: “The Israeli aggression on the Church of the Nativity is a crime, and we will continue to defend it.” Again, the whole cathedral applauded. The head of the Coptic Orthodox Church, Pope Shenouda, III, praised Arafat and said: “All our people are with you.”

This whole thing is so outrageous a lie that it makes one want to puke.

Aside from the fact that Arafat and his henchmen have been harassing and persecuting the Christians living under Palestinian rule to a degree that many of them escaped to live elsewhere, if Arafat wants to protect the Church of the Nativity, all he has to do is order his 200 murderers to leave the church. He knows they will not be killed. The Israeli army will only arrest them to be put on trial. And even if they are found guilty, they will not be executed, because Israel does not have the death penalty.

Arafat will not do this because he wants the world to intervene and set them free. He needs them to continue his war of terror on Israel.

There is a real possibility that he will get what he wants, because Europe and all the Arab countries are going to pretend to buy into this lie, and demand that Israel allow these terrorists to go free to continue their nefarious operations.

There is also a real possibility that America will save them, just like they saved Arafat and his thugs in Lebanon.

Certainly Arafat will not change his mind and order these people to leave the church, because whatever he may say, he really does not want peace with Israel. Arafat thrives on turmoil and conflict. If peace were forced on him tomorrow, he would not know what to do. He does not really want a Palestinian state either. He would have to provide schools, hospitals, roads, industry, and a democratic political structure, etc., etc. He does not want a state. Ehud Barak offered him a state. He rejected it. He only wants to fight for a state. He wants to be a hero to his people, not govern a nation.

Terrorists generally do not want peace to happen. If peace happens, what would they do? How would they be important? How would they be somebody? There would literally be nothing for them to do. So their whole raison d’etre is to keep the conflict going until death. Blood and terror is their whole life. Those who have experienced terrorists know that they really take great pleasure in hating and in killing. They do not want peace, so lasting peace with Arafat is never going to happen.

As far as the problem at the Church of the Nativity, the simple solution is for the Pope and the Vatican to order these men off their property.

The commandment in the Old Testament to give sanctuary to a murderer is only when refusing sanctuary would risk death for the murderer. Here this is not the case. At worst they would risk prison. Hence the Vatican should tell them to get out. That would solve the whole problem, because Arafat would not go against the Vatican.

Today I heard that there is a compromise being floated and Israel is buying into it; namely, that the terrorists in the church be deported.

Big mistake.

What do you think will happen after these terrorists are deported? Will they join the Salvation Army? No. They will immediately join Hezbolla and/or Al Queda. They will become more dangerous than before.

The Vatican, and whoever else owns the Church of the Nativity, must expel them, and Israel needs to put them on trial. If innocent, set them free. If guilty, put them in prison for life.

Sharon Nader Sloan, Esq. Lebanese-American

comments????