Quote:Unions are a crutch for the unskilled, unagressive sloths who can't do their own negotiations.
Are you fucking insane?????????? Unskilled workers?????? Have you ever worked in this type of business before? Do you know what its like to negotiate a better contract with the head of a company in the construction field? Let me spell it out for you so you can understand...
Employee walks into employers office, says, " I want a raise. I deserve more money for what I do for this company. I am a valuable employee, I do my job 110%, also, I think because of my time with the company, I deserve more vacation hours, not asking for alot, one more weeks worth, that will give me 3 weeks vacation, after all I have been working for you for 10 years now." Now while you are saying all this your boss is looking at papers, answering the phone, yada yada yada. After your done, the boss says, " No, I can't give you any of this." You say "Well, then I am going to have to look elsewhere," he says, " Fine, pick up your check on Friday, you are done."
That's how it is.
Edited By Brokenjaw on Sep. 04 2002 at 9:58
And that's how it should be. If I, as a white collar worker were to have the same discussion, and I was easily replaceable, they would tell me good riddance as well.
When the "skill" someone has is a commodity and any illiterate high school dropout can perform it, that person shouldn't expect to have any leverage when it comes to negotiations. But Unions pollute the free movement of workers, and the right of companies to shitcan people based on performance or lack thereof.
Want leverage? become the guy that is getting asked for the raise. He or she has a discernable skill that can't be replaced by tapping a healthy stranger on the shoulder and asking "want a job?"
Quote:When the "skill" someone has is a commodity and any illiterate high school dropout can perform it, that person shouldn't expect to have any leverage when it comes to negotiations. But Unions pollute the free movement of workers, and the right of companies to shitcan people based on performance or lack thereof.
I would like to see you walk one day in my shoes,and do my job. All you white collar, suit wearing twits are all the same. Do you have any idea what its actully like to get your hands dirty, besides the ink smudges? I would realy like to see an illiterate high school dropout, read blue prints, and be able to perform the task at hand. Sure big companies have no problem replacing a skilled employe with a mexican for a quarter of the pay, but in the long run, his company will be hurt by this. You keep your cushy desk job, because you would not last a week in this profession with your cocky ass attitude.
I used to do blue collar shit. I used to paint houses; when I I was a child. I painted for 7 years. I was not union, and I negotiated my own salary. I was paid more than some, less than others. I used the money to help put my way through college so I could better my intellect and move up from manual labor where anyone could do my job. I learned a measurable skill where I could create a livelyhood with my brain.
I did this so I wouldn't have to rely on a union, or anyone else to decide wether or not I could put food on my table.
I would never last there because I wouldn't allow myself to be in that situation.
blue collar...white collar...ring aound the collar...those dirty rings.
Quote:I learned a measurable skill where I could create a livelyhood with my brain.
I did this so I wouldn't have to rely on a union, or anyone else to decide wether or not I could put food on my table.
I would never last there because I wouldn't allow myself to be in that situation.
Wow, is it hard to breathe up there on that pedestal where you sit?
Many people prefer working with their hands and seeing the fruits of their labor. Many people prefer not to work a 9-5 job inside an office all day. I prefer my cushy 9-4 job, because I know I wouldn't last very long in a different environment. I also enjoy my job because I know there's no overtime involved and I can enjoy a life outside of work. I never wanted a "career" -- just a job that pays my bills. But I give a lot of credit to those who work with their hands, building, painting, paving, roofing, etc. It's a hard job, and most times, a thankless one. But without those workers, where would those of us with office jobs work? Who would build the buildings?
I think I'm almost where I want to be. I've always worked in insurance, just in different departments with different functions. At some point I became the systems expert for my area and maintained about 10 PC's besides my other "daily" work. So, I started leaning more to the PC side of my job and away from the other political bullshit I had to deal with....at least if the PC gives you a hard time, you can hit it or try to throw it out the window before someone sees you. Now I work mostly with DB design, development and maintenance.......I think if I get my DBA, I'll finally be doing what I want and what I should be.......only took me 13 years of full-time work to figure this out......ponderous, f'in ponderous.
I always get a kick out of hearing the argument that unions negotiate good pay and benefits that you wouldn't get without them. Pay and benefits like anything else is driven by demand for those skills in the market place. I have never been in a union and have always had pay and benefits that were equal to or outpaced similar union environments. Unions make things to restrictive and eventually cause union companies to become non competitive. Look at what happened to the automobile industry when imports started to outsell domestic. It wasn't until the unions conceded many of thier benefits that the American auto industry became competitive again. Labor laws, available to all employees govern what the union is able to do and not do. The unions tell you they defend your rights and will fight for you. All they are doing is mediating with a state labor board that you can do yourself and get the same results, minus the union dues you pay your union, and the mob.
The way I see it, people who say "I couldn't sit in an office all day..." are the people that are meant to work like humps all of their life. It's not that you couldn't handle being inside all day, it's more that you couldn't get the job, in many cases. Now of course, this doesn't apply to everyone, it's a generalization.
I worked in garages for the better part of the '90s, and now I work in an office. I can tell you honestly, it's harder to work in an office than it is to work in a garage. I used to get home from working on cars all day and I was physically drained, but I felt it was lacking a real mental challenge. These days, I get home sometimes and I just don't want to think any more. To me, it's much more rewarding to use my brain to earn a living that it was to use my hands.
This Brain Work shit is overratted. I couldn't see being any kind of Manager as being at all interesting. They go to meetings all day, and just have a different breed of paperwork. *sigh* I've been practically trained for this path all my life, and it blows monkey ass. I used to look down on the Tech-School kids... but now I wish I did something where I at the end of the day I could look & say "I made that." The finished product of my job now, is not worth the daily grind to get there.
i come to this place to get away from work....you all suck
Quote:The finished product of my job now, is not worth the daily grind to get there.
When I look at the finished product of my job and realize that a PowerPoint presentation I made just helped to land a deal for $250K, that gives me a greater sense of accomplishment than putting a really loud stereo in a car ever did.
Also, when I realize the opportunities that have risen out of my work, I know this could never have happened in any "hands-on" job. I've been given more opportunities to improve my life and my future in the last two years than I did in the previous 10 years.
So, you tell me what's the better position in which to be?
Quote:So, you tell me what's the better position in which to be?
It's a personal thing.
I work in Real Estate, million dollar homes are at stake, Apts, people's first homes... things that mean a lot to people... but I could care less. I'm just venting. I'm glad you like where you work. That was the point of this, to find out if it is possible. :thumbs-up:
I'm with Galt for the most part with what he said. My parents who both have their Masters are both teachers who regularly get fucked by their union, can't strike, while the bus drivers in Queens went out for almost two months and got themselves a cushy deal. While there's nothing wrong with blue collar work, you should not expect to get the same treatment (benefits, wages, etc.) as others who have gone on to higher education, etc.
By the way, does anyone know anyone who is hiring? I just spent $700 on text books, and I need a second job. :clueless:
That's all fine and dandy. Anyone can land an office job these day. I've been in fucking offices for over 7 years now and you know what? they don't give a fuckign rats ass about you! You have absolutley no job security and you get your wonderful review every year which doesn't garentee you shit! Besides, most companies cap out at 5% raises yearly and good luck finding one that also gives you cost of living increases. I can't speak for all the Teamsters Unions in the country, but the one where I live takes care of their people. And if you think they are all unskilled workers, come on up and repair oil burners and install boilers for 50 hours a week. Let's see if your office is gonna call you at 3 am when an entire apartment complex is without heat and babies are freezing and the eldery have to wear 40 blankets. I'm not looking for anyones approval here, trust me on that. In an office all they do is give a shit about themselves. if you are anywhere from middle management and below you are a worthless fucking peonn that can be replaced by 50 other people just like you. I never said that all Unions were great. I've talked with Russ about his experience with the Teamsters Union he was in, and they were very fucked up. The local I am joing does give a shit and if you being treated unfairly on a job, they will fight for you. I am doing this because I want to have a good future for my family. My benifits will extend to my wife and my eventual children. I also want to have something when I reitre other than a 401K and social security. I will have a pension which will be nice and security for the future is all I'm really concerned with. I've been in the white collar industry long enough to know that it all bullshit and the only winner are the people in the upper tier of a company. Say what you will about the Teamsters, they are still the countries strongest Union and I will be proud to call myself a member...
You know whats funny? All you blue collar people are putting down office jobs like those of us who work them say we like them...do you think that if we liked our jobs we'd be posting here so much? Don't you think we'd be more productive? Most of us know we mean nothing to our companies, god Damn I've been moved around the office more than 8 times, two of which I spent in a closet of some sorts. I know I mean nothing here, but this is just a job to do till I graduate. What I think the real issue at hand is the fact that those of you in unions feel as if you deserve the representation more than those of us who sit at desks all day.
Not true at all. I just made a fucking statement that I was finally getting a job that I wanted and where I would be trated fairly and it turns into a fucking huge debate. Most people go to school and graduate and then what? they are back in an office trying to find a job in the field they studied. I'm not saying everyone, but most. And the only person that represents you while sitting at a desk all day is yourself! You are just an individual. I'm not saying that I will not be representing myself either, but I won't have to scurry to an HR department when I have issues anymore. I call my Union rep and he handles the rest. I'm fucking done with this shit and this place...
You brought up a union surrounded by controversy, did you think that there would be no discussion? I don't think anyone was attacking you personally, things just tend to spawn off into tangents...actually I find the tangent to be more interesting than what people do for a living....
The point you made Polly about representation is the unions big smoke and mirrors game. They convince their memborship that they are doing something that you would'nt get if they weren't there. Unions have done many good things in the past and they had there place in history. Corpse's point is very valid. For his profession and his needs, the union will give him what he needs. Outside of strong union areas of the country, other reputible employers will give people the same thing. If your in and industry the unions control, you have to join the union. If you can't deal with that, work in Colorado or Arizona where laws prohibit unions from having closed shops. There is nothing wrong with blue collar or white collar. It's whatever floats your boat. Always remember though, regardless of what collar you wear, the greed of exectuive management will dictate whether or not you have a job. Just ask all those white collars at Enron who now have ring around the collar because they have no jobs to pay for dry cleaning anymore.
Any job is what you make of it. There have been people in my company that were here for twice as long as I've been here and never got half as far as I have. If you're only getting 5% raises per year, maybe you need to look at yourself instead of blaming it on management.
Unions are great for guaranteeing you something regardless of whether you earn it. I don't want to go out like that, personally. I perform, and I get rewarded for performance. I don't get an extra $1 per hour every year until I reach the cap. I get pay raises yearly based on the success of the company. If the raise isn't enough, I aim for a higher position. My company has been very supportive in all forward-thinking ventures I've asked of them.
Compare that to a guy that was here for 10 years and left making about 3K/year more than he started at. AFTER 10 YEARS!!! He was just a hump that did what he had to, to get by. Nothing more, nothing less. (Sound familiar anyone?) His big reward was a watch for 10 years of service at the 2000 xmas party. Guess what? He go fired in January of 2001.
I've watched people come and go here, the whole time while I was moving forward. I truly believe that if you want something bad enough, and you prove you can handle it, the sky is the limit. Of course, this wouldn't apply to all people or all companies. But, the logic still stands.