CDIH

still ignoring the economy, changing the face of the international landscape, and the fact that people loved him while he was president. Same as the Roosevelts; same as Kennedy.

I obviously haven't done the background research as Sir O, but to my knowledge everyone is ASSUMING that Regan had all this knowledge of the hostages for arms, when there is no proof. This is a guy that even his best friends said slept in many cabinet meetings. It is POSSIBLE that people do things without the President's knowledge. I certainly know that not every CEO knows every thing that goes on under him.

Kennedy had Marilyn Monroe murdered. Does that take away from everything else he did?

He broke the air traffic strike because they were breaking the law. It's as simple as that. There are laws on the books for a reason. What's the point if no one is going to enforce them.

Coincidentally there was an inflexion point where Unemployment + inflation was roughly 20%, to immediately falling like a stone once he was elected, a 20-year stretch where the market outperformed any other 20-year period in history. Creating trillions and trillions of wealth in the US, which raised the standard of living for the vast majority of the world.

The end of the nuclear buildup and concerns regarding WWIII.

(this is totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but) A president that people truly loved. Someone who they voted for not because he was the "lesser of two evils" which has been the case ever since.

But these three facts are all rendered moot because he is accused of knowingly trading weapons for hostages, congress and he couldn't agree on other cuts in spending to make up for military spending, and the fact that US success and freedom in the absence of religion (you see; that's why they all hate us; not because our government is too tied to religion, but because we are godless.) made a bunch of extremists hate us?

Again, if you don't measure the greatness a president by: economic growth, foreign policy victories, and opinion of the populace than how the hell do you judge it?

Quote:It is POSSIBLE that people do things without the President's knowledge. I certainly know that not every CEO knows every thing that goes on under him.

He still should be held responsible. I don't know enough about Reagan to go either way but Sir O's arguments are more convincing than yours. "A president the people truly loved", what does that even mean? People are idiots.

Quote:Again, if you don't measure the greatness a president by: economic growth, foreign policy victories, and opinion of the populace than how the hell do you judge it?

Hitler did pretty well in these categories.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that Reagan was a horrible president, or that he didn't have his positive qualities. Overall, his economic policies were a success. Inflation dropped, unemployment dropped. Those are good things. But along with that, we got increased federal spending and soaring defecits. Those are bad things.

The only president ever who actually decreased the size of the federal government and cut defecits, while maintaining low inflation and unemployment, was Bill Clinton (who, BTW, I wouldn't classify as a great president).

Sure, Reagan was loved by most of the people. He was charming, charismatic, funny, a sort of father figure. He was an actor. He was the perfect front for an agenda that was in many ways the exact opposite of the facade he presented.

And to imply that he wasn't aware of Iran-Contra...please. Either he was complicit in what was happening, or he was absolutely incompetent. The President of the United States not aware of what's happening right under his nose? Surely a "great president" would be more vigilant, no?

In all, under Reagan, we were treated to:

14 convictions on Iran/Contra

2 convictions of illegal lobbying

16 convictions in HUD scandal

And it could have been worse, but, well, you know....

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If you want the names of all of them, I'll need a couple of days - I have copies of the actual reports, yes I know I'm a loser. The HUD case, the influence peddling, and Iran/Contra were overseen by three different investigators and there are three different enormous reports, but here are SOME of the names of the convicted I recall by memory:

- Lyn Nofziger (infulence peddling)

- Michael Deaver (influence peddling)

- John Poindexter (conspiracy to mislead Congress, obstructing congressional inquiries)

- Richard Secord (conspiracy to mislead Congress)

- Rita Lavelle (lying to Congressional subcomittee)

- James Watt (indicted on 41 felony charges, plea-bargained to witholding documents)

Then there are the indicted and/or convicted individuals who were pardoned (pre-emptively in some cases) by Dubya's Daddy - I know these guys by heart:

National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane guilty of withholding information to Congress, fined

Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, indicted on five counts for lying to Congress

Clair E. George (CIA) indicted for perjury

Elliott Abrams, assistant secretary of state, guilty of withholding information

Duane R. Clarridge, C.I.A., indicted for misleading Congress,

Alan D. Fiers, C.I.A., plead guilty to charge of withholding information from Congress

All together, 138 Reagan officials were convicted, indicted, or underwent official crimminal investigation (many of whom resigned - about a dozen in the EPA alone if I recall correctly). No doubt this number would have been higher had the investigations not been halted by GHW Bush's ass-saving pardons.

I'm sorry, but I have very high standards for determining what qualifies as a great president. You can't take the good and brush off the bad - it's just dishonest.

Sir O scares me sometimes.

Sir O, who do you think was the last great president? Without knowing too much history, I'd say FDR.

Last great president? I agree, FDR, though a strong case could be made for Ike. I also think Nixon could have been great, but his paranoia, corruption, and alcoholism prevented it.

I think the list of great presidents looks like this:

Washington
Jefferson
Jackson
Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
FDR

Then there are guys right on the edge, and a case could be made: Ike, Polk, Truman, Wilson.

i elect sir o the moderator of our new politics forum

I elect you moderator for the bad ideas for forums forum

You want to talk about Reagan burdening us with high spending?

"The New Deal".

He tripled federal taxes in less than a decade. He created an insane amount of governmental agencies, plans, and benefits.

Social Security is a crime.

Because our economy was doing so well during the late 20s

He never took his coat off in the Oval Office.

Some of the things he put into place like the SEC were good, as were other banking regulations which was what really fucked everyone in the 20s and 30s. Not all government is bad. I'm not an anarchist.

But government is inherently innefficient because there is no concern for profitability.

Also, was there ever a president who believed in less government and actually put in policies to maintain this? Our last couple of so-called Republicans have only increased spending. I don't get what this party even stands for besides spreading their own arbitrary morals around the US and across the world.

The biggest myth in politics is that democrats are spenders and republicans are fiscally responsible.

The public doesn't want the government cut. Anytime anyone tries to so much as slow down the growth of any governmental program, they get demonized. Remember the medicare "cuts" the evil republican Congress tried to implement which weren't cutting anything, but were slowing down the growth of spending that shut down the government?

And I hate that Bush has spent retarded amounts.

Quote:I'm not an anarchist.

Pussy. Does your mommy have to hold your hand while crossing the street?

I was listening to the Yankee game on the radio on Sunday... once it was over, I continued to listen to the news for a couple hours.

The day's headlines...
Reagan will be in repose at the library, then he will be in state for the rest of the week, and then he will be buried at sundown on Friday.

Reagan will be in repose at the library, then he will be in state for the rest of the week, and then he will be buried at sundown on Friday.

Reagan will be in repose at the library, then he will be in state for the rest of the week, and then he will be buried at sundown on Friday.

Reagan will be in repose at the library, then he will be in state for the rest of the week, and then he will be buried at sundown on Friday.

Nothing else was happening in the world. Apparently, Iraqi insurgents stopped blowing up convoys to find out more about Reagan festivities, while oil prices remained at their record high level to pay respect to Reagan's passing, J Lo took advantage of the media blitz to marry Marc Anthony, and Eminem grabbed a studded codpiece and rubbed his ass crack along the shaft of a microphone stand, in honor of the Gipper.

It is ridiculous how much press this has gotten. Shit, it got more than the 40th anniversary of D-day. No one had seen or heard "boo" from the guy for 5 years. He was as good as dead. Everyone in the press had been talking about him as if he was dead. Since he announced he had Alzheimer's he was always referred to in the past tense.

And I totally agree with Gonzo; the fake comments from people who despised him while he was in office, now talk about how great he was.

I really couldn't care less that he's dead. He was fucking 100 years old. Good riddance.

But he was still a great president.

If you want to see the other side of the mirror, take a look at Slate

Quote:Shit, it got more than the 40th anniversary of D-day.

D-Day OD- World War II nostaglia has gone too far

Just so you know, this article is total bullshit, written by someone who has a hatred for the military and the acknowledgement of actual history.

We live in a time when the big news of Memorial Day is usually high gas prices, huge traffic, and bar b que's, but that's really not a reason to counter it with high gloss coverage of our fallen.

I'm a lil over 20 years done on this planet, living in this country, and, sure, I've seen enough shows, read enough books, and stood and watched enough speechs, coming to an understanding of what so many people did for this country, and for the world, in the pursuit of trying to bring peace. And I'm sure that there are millions of people, just like myself, who understand what those sacrafices mean. But I loathe and detest those that say "Yawn, I've seen all this before, we heard about D-Day twenty years ago, why we gotta hear about it every fucking year?"

Why? Because everyday, thousands of people enter this world, knowing absolutely nothing, and spend their youths, and their lives, seeking to understand the world we live in, and how we came to be at the very point at which we reflect upon things. And they weren't around 20 years ago when Reagan made his famous speech, and they weren't around ten years ago, and there are those that weren't around this past week, when we reflect upon D-Day; after all, it was only the greatest military operation in the history of mankind.

It's not about nostalagia for most of us. No one is jerking off to thoughts of men storming the beach at Normandy. We don't watch just to hear about men dying, areas being re-taken, battles being won and lost. We hear these stories, and we reflect, with the underlying thought that these men are going across the oceans which seperate us from most of the world, to fight battles to protect not only our freedom, but the freedom of the rest of the world. It captures our attention, when we focus in at the scale of one man, zoom out to the scale of a company, and then further out to divisions, armies. All of these people, fighting for us. Why?

That's a question that ought to be asked by every god damned American citizen, and I don't care if my fuckin television gets blitzed for one week every year by coverage of this spectacular moment in American history, even if I have heard the story a million times now, because there ARE people out there who have yet to ask that question, and if a huge media blitz gets them to ask it, then go right ahead.

Besides, I can always watch Nickelodeon GAS or G4 Tech TV instead.