Topic for Keyser......

[Ken'sPen]

post the lies and we will discuss, you continue to talk out of your ass and say...."well keyser, you should really know the facts".....no, you are making claims you cannot base in reality....your premises are all founded on some left wing conspiracy theory that the administration is knowingly lying to the american public.

if you have some specific evidence of them caught in a lie, i'd be more than happy to entertain your claims....otherwise you sound like the left wing version of hannity and rush, you're no different than the same kooks on the right who are more concerned about politics than the country itself.

earlier you chastised me for name calling.....
your posts on this page are nothing but.

[Keyser Soze]

i apologize...let me rephrase....

if you have some specific evidence of them caught in a lie, i'd be more than happy to entertain your claims

[Ken'sPen]

let's get off the war in Iraq....
and move to more recent times.....

did he lie in Buffalo when he claimed that wire taps require a court order?

[Keyser Soze]

Simple Keyser....
* We dismantled the Iraqi Army and Police Forces, therefore we became responsible for law enforcement.... with insufficient troops we were unable to do so.... remember the looting. From the start the message of lawlessness was given to the Iraqi people
* We had insufficient forces to secure the borders, and the infamous foreign fighters had unfettered access.
* We had insufficient forces to secure the munitions dumps, and these facilities were raided and used in the production of the roadside explosives we have been hit by.
*We had insufficient forces and Contract Soldiers were hired by companies for protection. These men do NOT report to the US Army and have done much to enflame hostilities.
*Forces have been insufficient to protect the work force engaged in rebuilding and Electric and Oil Production are still under pre war levels...

do I need to continue?

And if Bush had provided a more accurate portrayal of the cost and troop level needed, you would have supported his call to action? Or do you feel the need to criticize him no matter what?

Should we have finished off Afghanistan and just go on our merry way, hoping Saddam would just be a good little dictator and leave the rest of the world alone?

I've already agreed much earlier in this thread that Bush mismanaged this entire war, so i'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to argue with me about. My question for you is, what would you propose we should have done, without the benefit of hindsight?

[Keyser Soze]

ken, please cite your fucking sources for christsakes.

[Ken'sPen]

in other words....
let's change the entire topic of this thread in an attempt to put me on the defensive?

I'll be happy to discuss this....only after we continue to look at the corruption with the Republican's in power... which is what this thread is about.


Short answer though. Saddam was not a threat to us,
and should have been a low priority.

1. Bin Laden
2. Radical Wahabi islam (which is from SAUDI ARABIA)
3. North Korea and Iran going nuclear.

those should have been the priorities in any response to Terrorism.

[Keyser Soze]

ken, you're not paying attention.......i agreed with your last post on page 1.

i disagree with your claim that bush lied, if you have evidence in the form of specific quotes, post them.

[Ken'sPen]

Was Cheney truthful when he claimed he severed all his financial ties to Halliburton?

[Keyser Soze]

Can you prove otherwise?

[Ken'sPen]

Keyser.....
Cheney claimed he severed all his financial ties to Halliburton... is this true?

I hope you understand how futile it is for me to discuss topics with someone who is completely ignorant of the subject matter....

you seem to need me to foot note and support all kinds of information which are generally accepted as fact.

[Keyser Soze]

ken, if you can't cite your sources with actual facts, i can't continue to listen to you ramble with your left wing conspiracy theories.

of course im aware of the accusations made of cheney and haliburton, now prove it.

it is NOT generally accepted as fact just because you say it, i've backed up all my arguments with actual quotes. i'm sorry you're too lazy to do the same.

regurgitating your democratic talking points isnt 'knowing the subject matter', you know we both are well aware of the subject matter, you just post your opinions and try to pass them off as things that actually occurred or things people actually said instead of your interpretation of them.

[Hoon]

This thread is 6 pages and has had 19 different topics all brought up by ken.
This can only mean he is in the process of typing his next post verbatim from chapter 20 of 'Lies & The Lying Liars Who Tell Them'

[Ken'sPen]

Keyser,
are you unaware that Cheney still has deferred payment packages from Halliburton that have increased significantly due to the profits made in Iraq.

I should not have to cite this, because NOBODY is contesting it.

If you are ignorant of EVERYTHING then I need to cite sources for such trivial statements as the sky is blue.
there is no joy in such a labored discussion.

[Hoon]

Without proof it's merely an opinion.

[Ken'sPen]

EXACTLY,
and if you stay blissfully ignorant of things,
you can say "prove it" when confronted with facts you don't like,
and once it's proven you can say,
"so what?"

[Ken'sPen]

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Senator Frank R. Lautenberg released a CRS Report today that confirms that receiving deferred salary and holding stock options in a corporation does constitute a "financial interest" under Federal ethics standards. This finding directly conflicts with statements released by the Vice President's office after it was revealed that the Vice President continues to receive deferred salary from Halliburton and holds 433,333 Halliburton stock options. The controversy arose when Vice President Cheney made the following statement on the September 14th edition of Meet the Press:

"And since I left Halliburton to become George Bush's vice president, I've severed all my ties with the company, gotten rid of all my financial interest. I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind and haven't had, now, for over three years."

After the Vice President was confronted with information to the contrary, his office continued to deny any financial tie, arguing that by taking out an insurance policy on the deferred salary and assigning his after-tax proceeds from the sale of unexercised options to charity, a financial interest no longer existed. The CRS Report explicitly rejects this dubious line of reasoning, finding that financial ties continue despite those steps.

Another important issue explained in the CRS report is that the President and Vice President are both exempt from the enforcement of the ethics laws. The reason they are exempt is because forcing the President or Vice President to disqualify themselves from certain duties or recusing themselves from certain issues could interfere with the President and Vice President's Constitutionally required duties. The Constitution provides its own remedies against the President and Vice President for ethical breaches.

"This report makes clear that Vice President Cheney does indeed have financial interests in Halliburton under Federal ethics standards," said Senator Lautenberg. "I ask the Vice President to stop dodging the issue with legalese, and acknowledge his continued financial ties with Halliburton to the American people." DEFERRED SALARY

* Deferred salary paid by Halliburton to Vice President Cheney in 2001: $205,298 * Deferred salary paid by Halliburton to Vice President Cheney in 2002: $162,392

Halliburton paid "deferred salary" to Vice President Cheney in his first two years in office and is scheduled to make similar payments to him in 2003, 2004 and 2005. Deferred salary is not a retirement benefit or a payment from a third party escrow account, but rather an ongoing corporate obligation paid from company funds. If a company were to go under, the beneficiary could lose the deferred salary. The Vice President's disclosure forms also describe the deferred salary payments as "elective" without defining this term.

In an attempt to mitigate the Vice President's continuing financial interest in Halliburton with respect to the payment of this deferred compensation, the Vice President's financial disclosure form states that that the Vice President "acquired" an insurance policy "to ensure that he will receive the equivalents of his remaining deferred compensation account with Halliburton." The terms of this insurance policy, its cost, and who paid for it are unclear.

STOCK OPTIONS

At the end of 2002, Vice President Cheney's financial disclosure form stated that he continued to hold 433,333 unexercised Halliburton stock options, with exercise prices above the company's current stock market price. The Vice President has signed an agreement to donate any profits from these stock options to charity, and has pledged not to take any tax deduction for the donations. Should Halliburton's stock price increase over the next few years, the Vice President could exercise his stock options for a substantial profit, benefiting not only his designated charities, but also providing Halliburton with a substantial tax deduction.

Halliburton Stock Options Held by Vice President Cheney (current to end of 2002):

* 100,000 shares at $54.5000 (vested), expire 12-03-07 * 33,333 shares at $28.1250 (vested), expire 12-02-08 * 300,000 shares at $39.5000 (vested), expire 12-02-09

The Vice President's deferred compensation and stock option benefits are in addition to a $20 million retirement package paid to him by Halliburton after only five years of employment; a $1.4 million cash bonus paid to him by Halliburton in 2001; and additional millions of dollars in compensation paid to him while he was employed by the company.

HALLIBURTON'S CONTRACTS WITH THE ADMINISTRATION

WHILE OFFICIAL WASHINGTON SHUT DOWN PREPARING TO RIDE OUT HURRICANE ISABEL HALLIBURTON ENLARGED ITS NO-BID CONTRACT WITH THE BUSH-CHENEY ADMINISTRATION BY AN ADDITIONAL $300 MILLION LAST WEEK. THIS SPIKE BRINGS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS PAID TO HALLIBURTON TO $2.25 BILLION – OF WHICH $1.25 BILLION IS FROM THE NO-BID, EXCLUSIVE CONTRACT.

Negotiated in secret, this no-bid contract was originally intended for the sole purpose of extinguishing potential oil fires that could result from the war, but Halliburton's sole-source contract extended with the Army last March and April to include the reconstruction and repair of Iraq's oil infrastructure. Lautenberg has called on the Government Affairs Committee to hold hearings on Halliburton's no-bid contract.

"While the lights were out, Halliburton billed the American people $300 million over the hurricane weekend," said Lautenberg. "Congress has the responsibility to look into this immediately before more taxpayer money is placed in Halliburton's bank accounts."

[Galt]

Ken, why is it so difficult?

You say, Did Cheyney lie about severing all financial ties with Haliburton?

You are then supposed to: provide a link that proves that Cheyney actually said he severed all ties. And then provide another link that shows he still benefits financially from Haliburton's performance. Followed by c) That Cheyney has an impact on getting Halliburton work.

It's really not that difficult and should be expected when you try and debate.

You keep just throwing out accusations and expecting others to proove that your accusations are wrong.

[Ken'sPen]

galt,
read my above cut and paste.

[Galt]

yes, you are 1 for 35; congratulations.

No go back and and also provide support for the rest of your claims to support your thesis.

and in regards to your above cut and paste:

you are not providing "fact" but providing someone else's opinion. Just because that one guy interprets a statute to read one way; makes it an opinion.

Additionally, Deferred compensation is not a financial interest. It's like saying that Frank Thomas has a financial interest in the White Sox since they will be paying him a million a year for the next twenty years. He does not. That is payment for services already rendered. The future has absolutely no impact.

Second, stock options are absolutely a financial interest, but if he is indeed transferring any value to charity, then it is not a financial interest.

So, congrats, you provided info for 1 of 35, but you did not proove your case.

No, Cheyney did not lie when he said he severed all financial ties to Haliburton.

[Ken'sPen]

Galt.....
my point is that the stuff I am saying is common knowledge....

let me rephrase...
it's not my job to educate you, and if you lack a grasp of the facts that I am discussing, then I choose not to discuss it with you..... I'd rather not go looking for support for every statetment I make, when I am saying things that everyone should know.