Can we trust?

[GonzoStyle]

We laugh when the officials of Iraq come on TV and say that we are dressing civilian iraqi's in uniforms and pretending that it's iraqi armed forces surrendering. We laugh at them when they report outlandish accusations that we are the ones breaking the geneva convention. We are told that they are just desperate liars, which they are ofcourse.

But should we take everything that our own goverment says as gold? I mean lets not forget that we havent been the nicest of people through out history with our covert operations and we've also used some dirty tactics in the past. I am not getting into any conspiracy theories here, I know that its a far fetched scenario that we're doing any of the things the Iraqi's are saying we are. Yet at the same time, can we just all of a sudden believe that we are playing 100% by the rules?

[Ken'sPen]

so far MUCH of the media reporting is horse shit,

chemical factories,
Scud attacks
civilian uprisings,
surrender of 8000 troops.
all bullshit.

I think it is pompous for us to feign indigation with Iraq for not playing by all the rules. We hopelessly outclass them militarily. Their only hope is bend the rules a LOT and hope for the best....

But much of the tactics we are complaining about, I saw in WWII films. We made those movies and we were the good guys.

While I don't think we are above breaking these same rules,
I don't think we need to, and so we won't, yet.

[Buttmunch]

We learned it from the French.

[GonzoStyle]

If there are no Weapons of Mass destruction found, how bad are things gonna look? I think its not a horrible sign that we havent found any yet. I mean its only been a week, once we get the south to trust that we are not gonna leave them hanging like we did in 1991, they will finally rise up against saddam. Then we will be able to march into the center of baghdad with a lot more confidence. But like I was mentioning how uneducated people are, they think we won the war in 91 and all was well, they forget how many iraqi's that we all of a sudden love, were left in the wind to be executed or tortured by saddam.

I kinda am weary to some reports that I hear. 8,000 surrenders may be much, 3,500 I can believe. Also amidst 35,000 casulaties on the other side I find it hard to believe that the civilian causualties are in the teens. They are reporting 14 dead at a time, or 12 or 20.

Then with all the small things, the copter crashes, the grenade attack in kuwait, the missiles dropping in iran or wherever.

[Ken'sPen]

I am very conflicted. While there is soooo much legitimate reasons to persue regime change. I always felt Bush was selling it like a used car salesman. Like he didn't believe the reasons he was spouting.

So I am left questioning the deeper motives. and wonder how many other regime changes are on the list.

[Ronin]

we've also used some dirty tactics in the past

Name a few.. I am just curious...

And I think Iraq does have WMD. He could have hid them in underground bunkers, not detectable by satelites.

[GonzoStyle]

Well that was the motive behind my post a week ago about "Bush or Blair"?

Tony Blair is like a father figure, he makes you feel safe. You see him and he never falters, he never stutters or looks for words. When he gets the tough questions thrown at him, he answers them with no hesitation.

Bush is like that weird uncle you hate to hear speak. You see him twice a year maybe at family functions, he's the guy who has good ideas but can never explain them to you. He's the guy who always has some shady idea, kinda like Ralph Kramdens "get rich quick" schemes.

Tony Blair just makes me feel like we are doing the right thing, Bush at times makes me feel otherwise. Like Blairs suggestion that the US stay out of Iraq's regime change after the war. Bush wants a US consulate so to speak to supervise the change, Blair is against it and wants the UN to lead the way. Things like that make me respect Blair even more, he wants not to seem like we went to war to install a puppet goverment, Bush would like nothing better I believe.

Blair seems to have better intentions in his involvement than us. Like him wanting to take this hand in hand with trying to find peace in palestine, he is right in my opinion. If we are gonna finally set things right, do it, start it off. The Taliban is already trying to sneak back into Afghanistan, we cant just do it all piece meal like.

Now there was a statement by a army general who says that america doesn't possess any chemical weapons, I mean come one already. Lets not start acting like the angels of the world. For me to believe we dont have any weapons like the ones saddam has is pretty far fetched.

Lets not forget who helped put Saddam and The Bath party into power. Lets not forget who was saddams best friend in the 80's during the Iraq Iran war. Lets not forget who supplied saddam with his start off of weapons and who helped train his troops. We are as much to blame as anyone for saddam.

[Buttmunch]

<div align="center"></div>


Two U.S. Marines avert their eyes as they pass the sickening tribute to the 9/11 terror strikes painted on the wall of Iraq's abandoned military headquarters at Nasiriyah.
- Joe Raedle/Getty Images
This tribute to 9/11 is enough to keep me pissed about the allegiance and leanings of the Iraqui military and Saddam.

Also, Marines are reported to have found Russian made chemical weapons canisters along with a number of atropine ampules (used to counteract the effects of chemical weapons). I'm looking for the print story now.

[Ken'sPen]

I agree whole heartedly on Blair,

watching him deliver a speech to parliament is what changed my thinking to becoming more pro war. He laid out his reasons, and spoke in a quick fashion. Not sticking to rhetoric. Bush seems sedated when giving press interviews, his answers don't stray far past talking points. It seems he lacks the conviction to speak on the matter in an ad hoc fashion.

Plus Bair did not use "moral" or "god" once in explaining his postition.

[GonzoStyle]

Name a few.. I am just curious...

Come on, don't tell me you don't believe we have used dirty tactics, asassinations, covert operations.

We can't know the type of shit our goverment has pulled in the past cause it is private but you gotta know we have also done some shit. First off people like saddam, noriega and others were our allies at one point in time, then when they got to big to control they became our enemies all of a sudden. How many times did we try to kill off Castro? Why? Cause we didnt like his politics, we want everyone to be a democracy cause we are doing it. The whole Vietnam war was nothing but wanting to force our ways on a country. The whole Iran-Contra affair and Greneda. The use of organized crime help in world war 2. We have no been angels in conflict, we have done as much bad if not worse. Just imagine all the stuff we will never know about cause its locked away. All the stuff we don't know about that happens on our own ground. Maybe in another 50 years we'll know what really happened in Dallas in 1963.

[Ken'sPen]

going back in time,
what of the trail of tears, give the injuns small pox laden blankets as we march them across the frozen plains.

[LZMF1]

our government probably does do things that we'd be apalled at but the iraqi regime uses really underhanded tactics like using women and children as shields.


the iraqi republican guard is dogmatic and will do anything that hussein orders them to do. it's really sad but there's nothing we can do to change their minds....so fuck it....why not kill them all.

plus the fact that these "embedded" journalists really adds to the credibility of bush's claims IMO....i know that the troops that are with these reporters can be given easy and "non-offensive" tasks to be done but still you cannot hide the reports being given from the field.

[GonzoStyle]

Well yeah, if we go back further in time past WW2, we are some of the most vicious tyrants the world has ever known.

How many people never even knew we had concentration camps on our soil during WW2 to keep the japanses citizens in.

[Keyser Soze]

I don't trust our governments ability to protect us, let alone be honest with us. If they can fly a plane into the Pentagon what makes you think they're competent enough to make up a good enough story about why we need to install a puppet government in Iraq.

I believe that the citizens in Iraq are being terrorized but so are people in many countries around the world, there are human rights violations all around us, but as much as you want to ignore it, its about the oil and the economy stupid.

[Buttmunch]

Are japanses like chimpanzees?

[LZMF1]

How many people never even knew we had concentration camps on our soil during WW2 to keep the japanses citizens in

i thought that was common knowlege

[Keyser Soze]

yeah they called them "internment camps"

[LZMF1]

its about the oil and the economy stupid

of course it's about the oil!

[GonzoStyle]

It's not LZ, you would be surprised by how many people do not know that.

Keyser, while you are right, once again just because everyone is doing it doesnt mean we should do nothing. I do agree that there are some shady reasons into our involvement. I believe that Blair has a deeper involvement and he actually wants to make a difference, he is in the cloth of churchill, kennedy, and others who actually do want to change the world, not for his own goverment or countries benefit but for that of the world. He wants to engage this conflict with trying to find peace with isreal and palestine, as well as going into other countries peacfully to try and find a humanitarian way of ending conflicts.

Bush is out of office just like his dad, win or "lose" this war. By lose I do not mean that we can lose, but lose meaning that we find no weapons of mass destruction. Either way I do not see him being relected. Hopefully we get a president whom can work with Blair to realize his vision. Bush will go with Blairs wishes only because he is our strongest ally, not because he really cares.

[Ken'sPen]

again I side with Gonzo,
Blair wants reconstruction by the UN,
Bush favors a US program... Spearheaded by Halliburton, a firm Cheney was CEO of. Hard to protest alterior motives, when you reap the rewards.