persuade my end of year vote nominations

[Keyser Soze]

it doesn't matter if it's two party or eighteen party.
special interest will always run the show at the end of the day. your continued optimism is charming but i can't help but imagine how crushed you were when you finally accepted santa clause's non-existence.

about as crushed as you were when you realized bush jr was a complete and utter failure.

not really a failure. he took a shot and did what needed to be done.
he didn't listen to opinion polls and allow the enemy to build up and plan an attack like 911. that was bill clinton. oh, and bush's economy was better to boot. i think you need to stop listening to cnn and start thinking for a change.

i dont watch or listen to cnn. i dont need any media outlet to tell me this administration was the biggest joke in the past 40 years. not listening to opinion polls doesn't make you a great president. just because you're defiant doesn't mean you're right.

how do you figure bush's economy is better? the unemployment rate is higher, he turned a surplus into a massive deficit, he completely underestimated the scale and cost of this war, do i need to go on?

i'm not bill clinton's lackey and you shouldn't be george jr's either. they both have serious flaws. stop being such a pathetic cheerleader and demand more out of your civil servants.

[Hoon]

the last 40 years? you do realize that includes the Johnson, Nixon and Carter administrations, correct?
and i need to correct you on the unemployment rate. the onyl reason bush's aur was boosted for a short while was due to the greatest terrorist attack on our financial district, ever... an attack allowed to happen by a decade of clinton appeasment and cowardice.

bush has been far from perfect but he's also in a position only a very few american presidents have ever found themselves in.

[Galt]

I do believe the unemployment rate now is lower than at any point in Clinton's presidency.

But that isn't "the economy"

I believe GDP growth was much better during Clinton's presidency, as was median wage growth, and Clinton didn't have the benefit of a war boosting the economy.

And Clinton actually had a budget surpluss.

[Keyser Soze]

bush's response to the circumstances he is in is to blame clinton, plummet our country into its worst standing amongst the international community ever, spend more money than any president in history despite the fact he fancies himself a "conservative", and create a terrorist state in the middle east far more volatile than it was before we began this war.

so yeah, great job.

[Arpikarhu]

everytime i read clintons name all i can think of are those aliens from the simpsons saying, "president clin-ton."

[Hoon]

bush's response to the circumstances he is in is to blame clinton, plummet our country into its worst standing amongst the international community ever, spend more money than any president in history despite the fact he fancies himself a "conservative", and create a terrorist state in the middle east far more volatile than it was before we began this war.

so yeah, great job.

..and where did our good international standing get us on september 11th?
we were only in good standing because we were perceived as spineless cowards who didn't have the stomach for the fight. if that's the kind of thing you hope to revert back to then vote for democrat in 2008.

[Gooch]

i knew he'd pull out 9/11.

such a waste of a political debate. the argument is so hackneyed with kneejerkisms, why even bother.

[Keyser Soze]

yeah because democrats are spineless cowards who don't go to war.

wake up. its not war that anyone is opposed to, its being able to not be a pigheaded moron who doesn't listen to military analysts who know a hell of a lot more than some daddy's boy from yale who never even saw a second of real combat in his life.

there were people whose better judgment was offered and ignored by this president you hold in such high esteem. the results speak for themselves.

we weren't in good standing because we were spineless cowards, we were in good standing because we weren't the directionless, moronic barbarians we are perceived as now because of the bumbling idiot in charge.

luckily the world has been pretty forgiving and doesn't fault the citizens as much as the government for the last 8 years, but that goodwill could change if we keep choosing shit for brains for presidents.

[Hoon]

i knew he'd pull out 9/11.

such a waste of a political debate. the argument is so hackneyed with kneejerkisms, why even bother.

if you think we can talk politics without including the greatest attack on this country since pearl harbor than it's clear you just want to avoid reality.

[Gooch]

no, i want you to stop making fuckin excuses.

[Gooch]

if Bush is personified by 9/11, and this is the cause and effect of a bloated debt (from previous surplus) along with many other missteps, then you are just going to pull anything out of your ass to say why Bush has reasons to be ineffectual. The point though, is its unacceptable to be ineffectual, so the excuses are null and void...thus 9/11 isn't applicable, b/c the ones arguing simply don't care.

[Hoon]

yeah because democrats are spineless cowards who don't go to war.

wake up. its not war that anyone is opposed to, its being able to not be a pigheaded moron who doesn't listen to military analysts who know a hell of a lot more than some daddy's boy from yale who never even saw a second of real combat in his life.

there were people whose better judgment was offered and ignored by this president you hold in such high esteem. the results speak for themselves.

we weren't in good standing because we were spineless cowards, we were in good standing because we weren't the directionless, moronic barbarians we are perceived as now because of the bumbling idiot in charge.

luckily the world has been pretty forgiving and doesn't fault the citizens as much as the government for the last 8 years, but that goodwill could change if we keep choosing shit for brains for presidents.

I corrected you on the unemployment rate so saying I'm making it all about the war is ridiculous. The stock market has been in record shape, the housing market has been in an extended boom as well and all of this is taking place in a term that suffered 911 and hurricane katrina.

I will state once again, yes, bush has done some bone headed things but to casually buy into the 'worst president in the last 40 years' argument only means you don't understand your history.

[Hoon]

if Bush is personified by 9/11, and this is the cause and effect of a bloated debt (from previous surplus) along with many other missteps, then you are just going to pull anything out of your ass to say why Bush has reasons to be ineffectual. The point though, is its unacceptable to be ineffectual, so the excuses are null and void...thus 9/11 isn't applicable, b/c the ones arguing simply don't care.

but you're arguments are overlooking anything positive the man has done for the country. you won't accept the premise that we've had no attack on this soil since 911, you won't accept that the economy is not in the dumps, you won't accept anything that afford's bush an ounce of credit.

for the third time, im not defending him wholly but i'm also not a mornic far left stooge who thinks he files down his horns every night. and you call yourself and independent? independent from what? starvation and common sense?

[Keyser Soze]

ha, the housing market had been in a boom long before bush was in office, thats like taking credit for getting up in the morning. if i was mistaken about the unemployment rate, than i'll accept that but you continue to ignore the record amount of money that bush has spent that will leave this country, as you like to do continue to point to, in a worse position than it was when clinton left office.

so again, great job.

[Hoon]

HA! so bush inherets a booming housing market but is solely responsible for 911. funny how that hypocrisy works.

yes, the deficit is laughable but the deficit and our onternational standing doesn't make bush the worst president in the last 40 years. putting him in company with johnson, nixon and CARTERis just irresponsible.

[Gooch]

who holds him responsible for 9/11? your debate with yourself

[Galt]

The market is not at its high. I am so sick of people saying that.

The DOW is at its high, not "the market". "The market" is the S&P 500. The high for the S&P500 was somewhere around 1,530; it's at 1,410 right now.

And even if the S&P were at 1,531, I'd still hesitate to say that's "the high", since you have to index (conservatively) for inflation of 3% or (aggressively) for normal RoR of the market of between 8%-10%.

so that's the liberal answer.

The conservative answer is that "the market" was crashing well before Clinton left office (March '00), so to make it seem like The market was booming when Clinton was in office and has shit the bed since Bush has been in office is complete bullshit.

[Keyser Soze]

please show me where i blamed bush for 9/11 anywhere on this board.

he's an incompetent boob, 9/11 is way out of his league.

[Hoon]

i'f you're not saying bush is responsible for 911 and relieving clinton of any hand in the matter then i apologize. i was assuming you were going to travel the typical route many bush bashers have traveled for years.

once again, i am not holding bush up as the greatest president to ever live. what i am doing is trying to show you that he is not the worst president in american history or at least the last 40 years. the man takes risks and sticks to his guns. i admire that in him. he doesn't change direction on a whim just to satisfy the press or the raging liberal left who controled clinton.

[faceman802]

Hoon said

the housing market has been in an extended boom as well

Where do you get this information from cause everytime I turn on bloomberg on the radio I hear about new home sales dropping. In fact I heard just today how mortgage rates are going to fall in order to entice people to start buying again