The Lie of Christian Persecution

[scooterfanatic]

Taken from my blog at http://www.godless-heathen.com/2008/07/l...ution.html

Certain Christian elements in the media today are perpetuating a myth, a lie, that their religion is somehow under attack. Christian conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly calls it a "Culture War." He cites the fact that businesses are not using the phrase "Merry Christmas" but instead "Happy Holidays" during winter solstice season as proof that reverence to God is going by the wayside, that Christian "values" are under attack by "secularists." Also cited is the fact that compulsory school prayer met it's end in the 1960's.

One of the greatest lies ever told by these Christians is that prayer was removed from public schools. It is completely and utterly untrue. Every public school student is 100% free to express their religious beliefs, to pray whenever and however they wish, and to even hold and organize bible clubs. When I attended public school, I remember a 6th grade teacher of mine who had a Bible prominently displayed on his desk. He made the point that even though he wasn't allowed to teach it in the context of religious instruction (although he did use it for historical purposes), the constitution allowed him to have it.

Christians lost zero freedom to practice their religion in 1963. Christian children were and are still absolutely free to pray in school. What the O'Hair case did was remove mandatory, coerced prayer from school. The case merely changed the status of prayer from mandatory to voluntary. So if what these Christians want is mandatory school prayer, why don't they move to Saudi Arabia? Oh, that's right! The forced, mandatory prayer in Saudi Arabia is not of the religion they prefer and it's not to the God they worship. For some reason, it's only okay to force children to pray if it's to the God you happen to worship!

What these Christians are really lamenting is the systematic dismantling of the unconstitutional government sponsorship of their faith. Losing this favored position is causing them to cry "persecution!" To these Christians, it is persecution to treat all other faiths and non-faiths equally instead of giving Christianity the advantage. It's laughable to think that Christianity is a persecuted religion when one considers that the mass media, government, and most of the business world is run by them.

What's really happening here is that Christians are noticing their children aren't praying on their own in school. They're not thinking about God and they're not thinking about the Church. These Christians now want the government to step in and force their children, along with all those who may not share their beliefs, to pray and practice the preferred religion. This is the same motivation that stops alcohol and cars from being sold on Sundays in certain places. They are trying to use the government as a moral enforcer, even against those who don't share the same beliefs.

We've seen what governments are like when combined with religion, and there has never been a good result. From the Christianity-dominated middle ages to the Islamic terrorist states like Saudi Arabia; when one religion uses the government to enforce it's rules on the rest of the population, even if that population's majority shares the same beliefs, violence and brutality take hold and freedom dies a slow, painful death.

It's not my problem if you can't get your parishoners to stop drinking, or your children to pray before they eat lunch at school. Don't make me or my children conform to your rules. I have the right to decide how I'm going to live, and I have the right to decide what rules my children will live under. My children have the right to decide if they're going to follow those rules and I have the right to decide the punishments for breaking them. Forcing your religion on me through governmental interference to remedy your wayward followers goes against everything for which the principles of freedom and this country stand.

Our founding fathers chose "E Pluribus Unum," not "In God We Trust" as our country's motto. This nation was to be a haven from the state churches of Europe, where religious belief was compulsory. It saddens me that some Christians want to make their local and federal governments into a sort of modern-day "state church." We are a nation of many ideals, many religions, many philosophies, and many beliefs, united under the banner of freedom. Never could there be a more perfect way to describe us than that motto on the great seal, a motto that means in English "Out of many, one."

[Wiener Poopie]

Now that

[Howie Feltersnatch]

[quote="wienerpoopie"]Now that

[Biff]

I'm not reading that LAS.

[ratrad]

Excellent! I think I need to carry a copy for when I visit my ultra religious family and friends.

[krtfbhw]

scooterfanatic

Well said.

[kaboobie92]

I think people that say "persecution" are crying wolf. However, it is true that Christians are coming under a lot of fire. Anything that says "GOD" in it is coming under a lawsuit, and even the holiday Christmas (x-mas).

[ratrad]

I think people that say "persecution" are crying wolf. However, it is true that Christians are coming under a lot of fire. Anything that says "GOD" in it is coming under a lawsuit, and even the holiday Christmas (x-mas).

So what you are saying is, you didn't read the post.

Good. Way to go.

[Wiener Poopie]

Give the kid a break

[ratrad]

[quote="wienerpoopie"]Give the kid a break

[providencecrow]

[quote="ratrad"]
[quote="wienerpoopie"]Give the kid a break

[seductivebanana]

"It's all true", Free Beer

Not Cancer, AIDS, or even The Plague have been the biggest killers in history, It's been Chrisianity. Lets force everyone into being Christian so we can have the first holy war on American soil. That will be great.

[kaboobie92]

You are so ignorant.

[Wiener Poopie]

I didn

[ratrad]

You are so ignorant.

If you say it enough, it may come true?

[providencecrow]

You are so ignorant.

If you say it enough, it may come true?

So THATS how things work! I'm going say "I'm going to bang the hell out of Jessica Alba" over and over again and itll happen! Effing sweet!

[weinerpoopie]

"Christian conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly"

Bill O'Reilly is FAR from a Christan Conservative. It is safe to say that his Pro-Abortion stance would put him at odds at most churches. Bill is actually a Libertarian which although shares many common facets as conservatives, is still fundamentally different on many levels.

[ashleykme]

I want to thank Scooterfanatic, I agree with every word

[kaboobie92]

No we read, we just don't read that Liberal bs that is on the mainstream media. Thats obviously your only source of opinions. Keep letting the media think for you.

[ratrad]

No we read, we just don't read that Liberal bs that is on the mainstream media. Thats obviously your only source of opinions. Keep letting the media think for you.

Oh elrushbo. See? This is what I was talking about in that other thread. You go ahead and keep letting the media think for you. Thats obviously your only source if opinions.

[scooterfanatic]

What I said to Biff was an unconstructive, immature jab that served no useful purpose. I apologize for that.

[ratrad]

What I said to Biff was an unconstructive, immature jab that served no useful purpose. I apologize for that.

The high road. I like it. Though, it does seem appropriate in a FBHWs message board to throw unconstructive, immature jab that served no useful purpose.

[fistor!@#]

Hard to argue with anything you wrote, since I recognize the fact that the Freedom of Religion was put into the Bill of Rights in order to ensure anyone in the country can worship as they see fit without governmental interference.

Not to say I don't worship God or go to church - I do. I just see the danger in trying to abolish the Freedom of Religion.

[scooterfanatic]

Hard to argue with anything you wrote, since I recognize the fact that the Freedom of Religion was put into the Bill of Rights in order to ensure anyone in the country can worship as they see fit without governmental interference.

Not to say I don't worship God or go to church - I do. I just see the danger in trying to abolish the Freedom of Religion.

I wish more Christians would realize that separation of church and state is beneficial to both. One of the ultimate truths of this country's history is that if you ask the government to do something for you, there will be a price. I know there are some who want Christianity to be an official religion, but the question will inevitably come up: "which Christianity?" It will inevitably lead to what was happening in medieval Europe, with different Christian factions fighting each other for dominance, which is precisely what the founding fathers were trying to get away from.

[scooterfanatic]

"Christian conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly"

Bill O'Reilly is FAR from a Christan Conservative. It is safe to say that his Pro-Abortion stance would put him at odds at most churches. Bill is actually a Libertarian which although shares many common facets as conservatives, is still fundamentally different on many levels.

Bill O'Reilly is pro-abortion?


Seriously?


Wow.


I mean, doesn't that go against the official position of the Catholic Church?


Just, wow.

[speedbump]

"Christian conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly"

Bill O'Reilly is FAR from a Christan Conservative. It is safe to say that his Pro-Abortion stance would put him at odds at most churches. Bill is actually a Libertarian which although shares many common facets as conservatives, is still fundamentally different on many levels.

Bill O'Reilly is pro-abortion?


Seriously?


Wow.


I mean, doesn't that go against the official position of the Catholic Church?


Just, wow.

It does. Just like Guliani claimed to be Catholic, and was also pro-abortion. It's a title to them, nothing more.

[scooterfanatic]

Bill O'Reilly is pro-abortion?


Seriously?


Wow.


I mean, doesn't that go against the official position of the Catholic Church?


Just, wow.

It does. Just like Guliani claimed to be Catholic, and was also pro-abortion. It's a title to them, nothing more.

That makes sense. I firmly believe that the rich and famous actually have no political or religious positions. Their position is whatever will get them more money/power the fastest. Rupert Murdoch was on TV singing Obama's praises not too long ago, because he knows McCain is a lame duck and his candidacy is going to be a repeat of Bob Dole's 1996 campaign. If Skeletor...err....umm...Guliani lived someone other than New York City, he'd be anti-abortion.

Look at the about-face every candidate takes after the primaries are over. McCain becomes an environmentalist, and Obama becomes a security-hound.

[ratrad]

Yeah, look at what McCain's positions were when he ran against G Dub in 2004. Also, can we not say "Pro" abortion? I am very anti-abortion, but am still Pro Choice.

[lokizilla]

There isn't enough time in school to pray. There is an attack against Christians. Most people don't see how far atheists go to push Christians into a corner for their beliefs.

[imbadwithmoney]

As a Christian I don't think we are being pushed into corners for our beliefs. Actually we have a lot of freedom to express our beliefs that most people in this world don't have. All that being said I wouldn't want to go into the mall during Ramadan and see islamic holiday decorations all over the place. I can see how a non-Christian might get annoyed sometimes.

[ethos]

There isn't enough time in school to pray. There is an attack against Christians. Most people don't see how far atheists go to push Christians into a corner for their beliefs.

Yeah, you're being pushed, the people that make up 85% of America. Trust me, if you were in our shoes you'd feel MUCH more backed against a wall.

[shaggytheclown17]

Hmm well, christianity sure as shit is under attack on the internet n thats all I know, i've been bashed n laughed at n I'm not even a full christian.

There are different beliefs that have a God in it and a saviour, hmm.
I try ta take parts of all religions n use em, even the atheistic religion has a good point or two.

[speedbump]

Hmm well, christianity sure as shit is under attack on the internet n thats all I know, i've been bashed n laughed at n I'm not even a full christian.

There are different beliefs that have a God in it and a saviour, hmm.
I try ta take parts of all religions n use em, even the atheistic religion has a good point or two.

Atheism isn't a religion. Way to know things.

Why did you come back?

[cuppie]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that in a thread about how Christians aren't persecuted, there's a ton of Christian bashing? You're disproving everything that article is about by continually bashing Christians.

[-Jiggy-]

Christian persecution is not a lie. It's a very real thing that is happening more and more. I'm not going to get into the whole separation of church and state debate, that's a separate issue and i'm not sure why it's even being talked about with persecution.

[providencecrow]

I'm not going to get into the whole separation of church and state debate, that's a separate issue and i'm not sure why it's even being talked about with persecution.

I actually can explain that, some people on the religious side (i am related to a few of these) actually feel that a separation between church and state IS persecution. I have family members who truly believe the best form of government would be a theocracy (a christian theocracy mind you).

It's just one of those situations where the majority of the people fall somewhere in the middle on the issue. Most Christians are quiet and do not go around trying to convert people, and most atheists are quiet about it and don't go around trying to get people to give up their beliefs. It's just the loud crazy ones on either end of the spectrum that garner all the attention.

[-Jiggy-]

I'm not going to get into the whole separation of church and state debate, that's a separate issue and i'm not sure why it's even being talked about with persecution.

I actually can explain that, some people on the religious side (i am related to a few of these) actually feel that a separation between church and state IS persecution. I have family members who truly believe the best form of government would be a theocracy (a christian theocracy mind you).

It's just one of those situations where the majority of the people fall somewhere in the middle on the issue. Most Christians are quiet and do not go around trying to convert people, and most atheists are quiet about it and don't go around trying to get people to give up their beliefs. It's just the loud crazy ones on either end of the spectrum that garner all the attention.

and unfortunately it's the loud crazy ones that actually make things happen. Remember Janet Jackson/nipplegate and how out of the whole country a very small percentage of people (don't know the numbers) actually complained. Now the FCC is a joke.

[lt]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that in a thread about how Christians aren't persecuted, there's a ton of Christian bashing? You're disproving everything that article is about by continually bashing Christians.

I don't believe this thread contains any "christian bashing," just a discussion of observations made by others. No one has said Christianity is wrong and its follows are crazy loons, but it seems to me that Christians have been trained to feel persecuted when someone doesn't believe the same thing they do.

Just the other day my girlfriend and I were talking about how she ran into a friend who is very Christian, and how her friend tried to convince her to go to her church, but my girlfriend was too afraid to tell this person, who in her own words "accepts me for who I am", that she no longer believes in religion for fear of being alienated amongst their group of mutual friends. The same reason why she goes along with her family when invited to church for religious holidays, and gets pissed at me when I refuse to go along. BTW - out of our close group of friends, and my family, we are the only non-religious folks in the group, which is used as fodder (by even my mother) to mock us (which I give right back in spades).

Side note: agreeing with speedbump, I hate it when people refer to atheism as a religion, it is a philosophical view.

//jumps off soapbox

[cuppie]

From what I've seen there's been much implied bashing of Christians in this thread.

Anyway, it kind of pisses me off that your mother and family mock you for not being a Christian. They should realize that this is the exact opposite of what they're supposed to do. I grew up in a Christian home my entire life. My father is a minister and has been for over 30 years now. My brother went through a long period of time when he hated everything that had to do with the church. The only thing my parents did was to love him like they should despite what they really wanted for him. Your mom should be ashamed for mocking you for having a lack of religion.

[-Jiggy-]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that in a thread about how Christians aren't persecuted, there's a ton of Christian bashing? You're disproving everything that article is about by continually bashing Christians.

I don't believe this thread contains any "christian bashing," just a discussion of observations made by others. No one has said Christianity is wrong and its follows are crazy loons, but it seems to me that Christians have been trained to feel persecuted when someone doesn't believe the same thing they do.

Just the other day my girlfriend and I were talking about how she ran into a friend who is very Christian, and how her friend tried to convince her to go to her church, but my girlfriend was too afraid to tell this person, who in her own words "accepts me for who I am", that she no longer believes in religion for fear of being alienated amongst their group of mutual friends. The same reason why she goes along with her family when invited to church for religious holidays, and gets pissed at me when I refuse to go along. BTW - out of our close group of friends, and my family, we are the only non-religious folks in the group, which is used as fodder (by even my mother) to mock us (which I give right back in spades).

Side note: agreeing with speedbump, I hate it when people refer to atheism as a religion, it is a philosophical view.

//jumps off soapbox

Are you blaming religion for your girlfriend felling like she can't be herself in front of her friends and family. Religion isn't the source for those feelings, that's just called human emotion. It's the same way I really liked my moms spaghetti growing up and now that I have tried my mother-in-laws spaghetti my moms isn't as good. I don't have the heart to tell her because I know it would hurt her feelings. By the way I am not trying to put religion and spaghetti in the same category, it's just the first example I could come up with.

As far as the mocking goes I can speak from experience that that comes with the territory. I went to church alot in high school and decided after school to go to a christian college. I immediately realized it wasn't for me. Not that my faith was diminishing but there was nothing in the religious field I wanted to pursue as a career. While there, however, I met my future wife. Over the last 9-10 years since then my faith has been tested alot. I have come to the realization that church and religion doesn't make me a christian. I do feel that the church plays an important role but it will not get you to heaven. So needless to say I do not attend church as much as my wife, or her family for that matter, would like me to. One thing my wife's aunt told my wife one time was that I was probably just using the christian college and church to manipulate my wife and try to get into her pants. Through all of this though my faith is still the cornerstone of my life. I just try to have a deeper understanding of how the real world works and I don't look down on people because they choose a diiferent path than me. It's people like my wife's aunt is why I don't go to church more often. I wish people could just live their life how they want and let others live how they want.