atheist how many here ?

[zeehawk30]

Right the term Christian was not around till well after Jesus was crucified. I understand that. I also agree that Christians sin as well. All sin and fall short of the glory of God. Because of that sin Christians deserve to pay the price of eternal death condemned in hell.

I'm trying to understand the statement you made earlier...

I think he's saying that Jesus talked about "turning the other cheek", he was a total pacifist. If a Christian leader wanted to act like a true follower of Christ, he would act in the same way.

Do you think that Jesus was talking about all use of force or violence? Maybe there are a lot of Christian leaders being bitch slapped. If so, I agree... Jesus says turn your cheek and take another.

[toddlerfundler]

Yes he was talking about any type of persecution, violence, and aggression.

[zeehawk30]

Yes he was talking about any type of persecution, violence, and aggression.

I know you don't believe that is absolute. If someone breaks into your house and tries to rape your wife you don't say here take my daughter too. I guess what I'm trying to understand is where do you draw the line for a Christian leader? Either that or what specific issue do you have a problem with as far as Christian leaders?

[toddlerfundler]

Jesus was dressed with a crown of thorns, stabbed with a spear, and crucified and never once raised a hand. If your wife is a Christian she knows that God will protect her. Sometimes we must endure hardships but that doesn't mean that hardships give you a reason to stray from the path of Christ.

There is no line,

That's the point I'm making, man decided there was a line and now that there's a line you get to decide where you want to place it. I'm aware that this is an absolution of the idea but my problem is with people that don't even try to push the "line" back as far as possible. Christianity is about TRYING to be as Christ-like as possible, so you should be making every attempt to deal with any situation with compassion and love.

The people that profess their Christianity then start wars with out exhausting any and all efforts are hypocrites.
Christians that think prosecuting people with different views is their right are hypocrites.
Christians that goto church every Sunday to feel good about them selfs then judge the people around them are hypocrites.

I'm not a Christian, so yes I would kill someone raping my wife. My problem is when Christian talk down to atheists from their high horse when a very few percent of them actually lives a Christian lifestyle.

[ratrad]

Jesus was dressed with a crown of thorns, stabbed with a spear, and crucified and never once raised a hand. If your wife is a Christian she knows that God will protect her. Sometimes we must endure hardships but that doesn't mean that hardships give you a reason to stray from the path of Christ.

There is no line,

That's the point I'm making, man decided there was a line and now that there's a line you get to decide where you want to place it. I'm aware that this is an absolution of the idea but my problem is with people that don't even try to push the "line" back as far as possible. Christianity is about TRYING to be as Christ-like as possible, so you should be making every attempt to deal with any situation with compassion and love.

The people that profess their Christianity then start wars with out exhausting any and all efforts are hypocrites.
Christians that think prosecuting people with different views is their right are hypocrites.
Christians that goto church every Sunday to feel good about them selfs then judge the people around them are hypocrites.

I'm not a Christian, so yes I would kill someone raping my wife. My problem is when Christian talk down to atheists from their high horse when a very few percent of them actually lives a Christian lifestyle.

Excellent response!

[zeehawk30]

Jesus was dressed with a crown of thorns, stabbed with a spear, and crucified and never once raised a hand. If your wife is a Christian she knows that God will protect her. Sometimes we must endure hardships but that doesn't mean that hardships give you a reason to stray from the path of Christ.

There is no line,

That's the point I'm making, man decided there was a line and now that there's a line you get to decide where you want to place it. I'm aware that this is an absolution of the idea but my problem is with people that don't even try to push the "line" back as far as possible. Christianity is about TRYING to be as Christ-like as possible, so you should be making every attempt to deal with any situation with compassion and love.

The people that profess their Christianity then start wars with out exhausting any and all efforts are hypocrites.
Christians that think prosecuting people with different views is their right are hypocrites.
Christians that goto church every Sunday to feel good about them selfs then judge the people around them are hypocrites.

I'm not a Christian, so yes I would kill someone raping my wife. My problem is when Christian talk down to atheists from their high horse when a very few percent of them actually lives a Christian lifestyle.

Thats definitely the clarification that I was looking for. I may not agree with everything you said but +1 for having good logic behind your original statement.

[toddlerfundler]

Sometimes i forget everyone else isn't inside my head and I start arguments halfway though.

And one other thing why dose spell check make me capitalize Christians but not atheists? I mean just because I think this world is all we have doesn't me I don't want a capital A!

[zeehawk30]

Sometimes i forget everyone else isn't inside my head and I start arguements halfway though.

Its all good. It would have been a waste not to hear the entire argument though.

[toddlerfundler]

You respond too fast, I write, post, reread then edit. By then you've responded!@

[zeehawk30]

Sometimes i forget everyone else isn't inside my head and I start arguments halfway though.

And one other thing why dose spell check make me capitalize Christians but not atheists? I mean just because I think this world is all we have doesn't me I don't want a capital A!

I believe Christian is capitalized because it is derived from a proper noun.

[kaboobie92]

A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man.

If this is true, then why would GOD have commanded the Israelites into violence in the Old Testament? I realize that they weren't "christians" but they followed the word of GOD, and if anything were more strict because the great sacrifice had not been made yet. To say that any violence is un-Christian is wrong. Sometimes its necessary, although I do agree that it should only be used when necessary and that the US has become to much of a "world police". Although I am a die hard conservative, I believe that America should keep its nose out of other people's problems and worry about our own country before venturing out into the world. However, in a case like Afghanistan (And you could argue for Iraq), we are protecting our nation, and staying on the offensive to prevent the terrorists from being able to regroup and cause harm on our nation again. But going back to Christianity, you can't dismiss all the events in the Old Testament because they happened before the Crucifixtion (sp?). There are things that changed afterward (i.e. no more sacrifices etc.) but I think we can learn alot from the Old Testament and apply it to how we live now.

[zeehawk30]

A true Christian leader would never take up arms agianst another man.

If this is true, then why would GOD have commanded the Israelites into violence in the Old Testament? I realize that they weren't "christians" but they followed the word of GOD, and if anything were more strict because the great sacrifice had not been made yet. To say that any violence is un-Christian is wrong. Sometimes its necessary, although I do agree that it should only be used when necessary and that the US has become to much of a "world police". Although I am a die hard conservative, I believe that America should keep its nose out of other people's problems and worry about our own country before venturing out into the world. However, in a case like Afghanistan (And you could argue for Iraq), we are protecting our nation, and staying on the offensive to prevent the terrorists from being able to regroup and cause harm on our nation again. But going back to Christianity, you can't dismiss all the events in the Old Testament because they happened before the Crucifixtion (sp?). There are things that changed afterward (i.e. no more sacrifices etc.) but I think we can learn alot from the Old Testament and apply it to how we live now.

There must be some example in the New Testament to support your argument. The only that I can think of is Jesus overturning the tables and what not in the temple. Can you apply that example to your argument or find some other New Testament support? I know there is an endless amount of support in the Old Testament.

[kaboobie92]

If this is true, then why would GOD have commanded the Israelites into violence in the Old Testament? I realize that they weren't "christians" but they followed the word of GOD, and if anything were more strict because the great sacrifice had not been made yet. To say that any violence is un-Christian is wrong. Sometimes its necessary, although I do agree that it should only be used when necessary and that the US has become to much of a "world police". Although I am a die hard conservative, I believe that America should keep its nose out of other people's problems and worry about our own country before venturing out into the world. However, in a case like Afghanistan (And you could argue for Iraq), we are protecting our nation, and staying on the offensive to prevent the terrorists from being able to regroup and cause harm on our nation again. But going back to Christianity, you can't dismiss all the events in the Old Testament because they happened before the Crucifixtion (sp?). There are things that changed afterward (i.e. no more sacrifices etc.) but I think we can learn alot from the Old Testament and apply it to how we live now.

There must be some example in the New Testament to support your argument. The only that I can think of is Jesus overturning the tables and what not in the temple. Can you apply that example to your argument or find some other New Testament support? I know there is an endless amount of support in the Old Testament.

I would put a lot of research into it and find specific verses but I dont really have the time right now and I'm at work and don't have access to a BIBLE. I do agree with the story of Jesus overturning the tables as being a good example. I can't think of many examples that would be evident in the new testament. One that I think may work involves Revelation. In the end it is a battle between God and satan (armageddon). GOD in all his power could have chosen a different way to defeat the devil. I dont know if this would work, but it's the first thing that came to mind when you asked for an example. I do however believe there is a fine line between violence, and violence that advances the Kingdom.

[toddlerfundler]

My belief is that the bible is a work of fiction based loosely on fact. Christian belief is that one should treat others as they would want to be treated. GOD vs the Devil in revelations is hardly the place to look for examples of how man should treat man. If anything the fact that it's hard to find condoned violence in the bible should be proof enough that it should be avoided at all costs.

It brings me back to why i disagree with Christianity so much and thats because it's bent to mean what you want it to mean. Example: There are two references in the bible where Jesus says about the Romans who would take in little boys and molest them "Man should not lay with another man". This addresses two things pedophilia, which the church has some dabbling in, and homosexuality. So look at the stances they have taken against these two things. There are still clergy serving that have been accused of pedophilia but homosexuals are condemned. If God wanted you to persecute homosexuals wouldn't he have made an inclusion in his rules for that? "Honor thy mother and father unless they're gay" ... What's happening to the gay community is persecution.

The gay issue feels like just another one of those personal prejudices clothed in faith and yet another on the list of corrupted features of christian faith.

[kaboobie92]

So what are your thoughts on creation, because that could have a large effect on your opinions?

[Wiener Poopie]

So what are your thoughts on creation, because that could have a large effect on your opinions?

My Mom and Dad created me, and you?

[kaboobie92]

The thing that trips up most people is that Christianity isn't about how often you pray, or how often you go to Church, or what denomination you are. Its about a personal relationship with the Creator, and I'm not sure what you believe as far as if you are agnostic etc. but i don't see how you can deny the existence of GOD. The premise of Christianity is a pursuit of the likeness of HIM, but it almost sounds like you are saying that because Christians arent perfect that it ruins the validity of the religion. There is sin in everyone, even Christians (obviously), but its about the forgivness and the pursuit to rid yourself of sin that makes people act like Christians.

[kaboobie92]

So what are your thoughts on creation, because that could have a large effect on your opinions?

My Mom and Dad created me, and you?

You know what I meant, as far as creation of the universe (earth).

[Wiener Poopie]

Atmospheric collisions

[plungerhand]

Big Bang.... Religion was invented to control the masses.

[toddlerfundler]

The depth of the corruption into Christianity ruins the religion. From Henry VIII killing clergy to get a divorce all the way to the Council of Nicaea. Crusades, televangelists, bills in the mail from the church telling you you haven't contributed enough, The Dead Sea Scrolls, and the lack of evolution.

Each a good reason to not trust the religion, I think there is a higher power. But he's neither good or evil, and there's no heaven. You got one shot, make it good.

[toddlerfundler]

Big Bang.... Religion was invented to control the masses.

Exalt!

[plungerhand]

All you have to do is look at the different species of man, both extinct and living to witness evolution.

[kaboobie92]

im really interested if you actually believe in the big bang. How can you actually think that with the complexity of our earth that it was created by an accident? Look at yourself once. Look at the intricacies of the human body, and everything in general. You are telling me this was a "cosmic accident"? I really dont understand it. If you actually LOOK for GOD you will find him. However, if you keep your back turned and refuse to acknowledge it you won't find Him. And yes, Churches and organized religion is corrupt. But do not confuse faith with religion. The purpose of the Church is to provide a community of believers and to help build knowledge on your faith. You don't believe in "Christianity". You believe in GOD, and that Jesus died as your savior. So any argument against "religion" is not against the belief system/faith behind Christianity.

[kaboobie92]

And there is no such thing as evolution. Find me some evidence, Adaptation yes, Evolution no. But its no sense in me arguing with you because I'm not going to try to convince you that what I believe is right. You will believe what you want to believe whether I talk or not. GOD is there, but if you don't look for Him, you won't find Him.

[plungerhand]

And there is no such thing as evolution. Find me some evidence, Adaptation yes, Evolution no. But its no sense in me arguing with you because I'm not going to try to convince you that what I believe is right. You will believe what you want to believe whether I talk or not. GOD is there, but if you don't look for Him, you won't find Him.

I don't believe there is anyone on this planet qualified to tell me that THEIR beliefs are fact. All religions ARE corrupt. I would rather take my chances in my own beliefs, than bet on a sure loser.

[Wiener Poopie]

Do people that believe in God believe in aliens or that there is life on other planets?

[kaboobie92]

And there is no such thing as evolution. Find me some evidence, Adaptation yes, Evolution no. But its no sense in me arguing with you because I'm not going to try to convince you that what I believe is right. You will believe what you want to believe whether I talk or not. GOD is there, but if you don't look for Him, you won't find Him.

I don't believe there is anyone on this planet qualified to tell me that THEIR beliefs are fact. All religions ARE corrupt. I would rather take my chances in my own beliefs, than bet on a sure loser.

sorry you feel that way

[plungerhand]

Do people that believe in God believe in aliens or that there is life on other planets?

Or is god an alien?

[kaboobie92]

Do people that believe in God believe in aliens or that there is life on other planets?

I obviously can't speak for all believers but I do not. I don't know if you have ever read the BIBLE before but GOD creates earth, and then creates humans. I believe the BIBLE clearly states one earth, and then GOD created the universes. (Read up on Genesis if you want)

[Wiener Poopie]

If they find life on other planets would that prove the bible wrong?

[kaboobie92]

no, because it never specifically says that there only life on earth. But i believe there is no life on other planets.

[plungerhand]

Do people that believe in God believe in aliens or that there is life on other planets?

I obviously can't speak for all believers but I do not. I don't know if you have ever read the BIBLE before but GOD creates earth, and then creates humans. I believe the BIBLE clearly states one earth, and then GOD created the universes. (Read up on Genesis if you want)

the bible is YOUR interpretation. Find me a group of 10 people and you'll find 10 different interpretations.

[speedbump]

And there is no such thing as evolution. Find me some evidence, Adaptation yes, Evolution no. But its no sense in me arguing with you because I'm not going to try to convince you that what I believe is right. You will believe what you want to believe whether I talk or not. GOD is there, but if you don't look for Him, you won't find Him.

After saying something like this, I know me arguing has a 99.9% chance of futility, but I am damn well going to try.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/...evolution_

This is an experiment done on E-coli, over 44,000 generations. The e-coli were given a limited supply of food, but enough to survive and placed in citrate. After 31,000 generations the e-coli developed a new ability to absorb nutrients from the citrate. Since a specimen was frozen from every 500, then went back to the 20,000 generation and found that if you started with e-coli from this point, they were much more likely to develop the abiliity to absorb citrate. In the process leading to this new ability, they found that two genetic drift's occurred, and after each drift the chance that e-coli would develop the absorbing ability increased.

After seeing this, how can you not believe in Evolution? I'll remind you of the definition in case you forgot.

"In biology, evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. The genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. Mutations in genes can produce new or altered traits in individuals, resulting in the appearance of heritable differences between organisms, but new traits also come from the transfer of genes between populations, as in migration, or between species, in horizontal gene transfer. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are produced by genetic recombination, which can increase the variation in traits between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population."

You'll notice that, after 31,000 generations, a major inherited trait changed from one generation to the next.

You're welcome.

[toddlerfundler]

im really interested if you actually believe in the big bang. How can you actually think that with the complexity of our earth that it was created by an accident? Look at yourself once. Look at the intricacies of the human body, and everything in general. You are telling me this was a "cosmic accident"? I really dont understand it. If you actually LOOK for GOD you will find him. However, if you keep your back turned and refuse to acknowledge it you won't find Him. And yes, Churches and organized religion is corrupt. But do not confuse faith with religion. The purpose of the Church is to provide a community of believers and to help build knowledge on your faith. You don't believe in "Christianity". You believe in GOD, and that Jesus died as your savior. So any argument against "religion" is not against the belief system/faith behind Christianity.

The Universe is infinite.

People "say" they understand what infinite means but your statement shows that you don't. In an infinite environment you will find everything. If you roll a dice an infinite amount of times at least once it will land on an edge. If you make an infinite existence at least once you will get life. Once you have life it will survive. Survival is tha basis of evolution. Ice age coming, those that could survive bred and those that can't die. Now there's a generation more resistant to the cold. Not all the bears in the polar region were white at one point, but the brown ones died because they stuck out and got eaten.

What about dinosaurs? I can prove they exist, your bible doesn't mention making them at all. If the father, son, and holy spirit left that out how can you say without a doubt that there's not other things left out?

[toddlerfundler]

The fact is a lot of "bad" people though out history saw a group of people that would believe things without fact or proof and flocked toward them. The lord is your shepard, that makes you sheep. Because you been conditioned to obey and fear, all someone has to do is say that our freedom, religion, homeland is threatened and you'll follow without question.

America was founded by a brilliant group of men that saw the wars and strife that religions caused the world and set up a place where church and state were separate. Damned if the Christians aren't trying to take that down too. It sucks because I love my country. Apparently the naive have to be reminded how much fun a holy war is every thousand years or so, but there's no more oceans to set up shop across when the heathens start killing each other.

[providencecrow]

im really interested if you actually believe in the big bang. How can you actually think that with the complexity of our earth that it was created by an accident?

I dont see how the earths creation was an accident according to the big bang theory ???

[zeehawk30]

I obviously can't speak for all believers but I do not. I don't know if you have ever read the BIBLE before but GOD creates earth, and then creates humans. I believe the BIBLE clearly states one earth, and then GOD created the universes. (Read up on Genesis if you want)

the bible is YOUR interpretation. Find me a group of 10 people and you'll find 10 different interpretations.

I agree 100%. I have read the Bible front to back on a number of times and I can interpret it to say pretty much anything that I want. There are a lot of people that do exactly that and make the Bible say what they want it to say. There are also people who are looking for answers and trying to find the intended interpretation. Its not as easy at it sounds though. To understand a passage its important to know the historical context and what not.

I have fallen away from doctrines created by man that denominations use in addition to the Bible. I personally believe I have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I think the wages of that sin is eternal death but Jesus paid that price for me by dieing on the cross. I see nothing in the Bible against evolution and personally I believe in evolution.

Life on other planets... I really don't have an opinion on that... do I need to have one? Maybe someone could explain the significance of that to me.

[providencecrow]

Life on other planets... I really don't have an opinion on that... do I need to have one? Maybe someone could explain the significance of that to me.

Here is the significance: If it is intelligent life, that would be cool.

Personally unless we are under an intergalactic assault, i don't really care either way. Statistically there probably is something else out there, but i remain skeptical like with all things until i have definitive proof.

[zeehawk30]

Life on other planets... I really don't have an opinion on that... do I need to have one? Maybe someone could explain the significance of that to me.

Here is the significance: If it is intelligent life, that would be cool.

Personally unless we are under an intergalactic assault, i don't really care either way. Statistically there probably is something else out there, but i remain skeptical like with all things until i have definitive proof.

Yeah... okay... more intelligent life on this planet 'would be cool.'

What is the significance in regards to religion or the existence of God?