GM = Government Motors ???

[Mad Dog]

So now the Obama Administration is getting in to the car manufacturing business. I can't wait until they start taking over other "essential" businesses. I can just picture Obama going right down the line and start firing any CEO he see's fit and we all work for Obama Inc. By the way, didn't Hitler start out this way, finding excuses to take over any company that would serve "The Greater Good" of the Reich?

[Howie Feltersnatch]

The unions are to blame I say...Toyota is doing damn good...and look, no unions there!

[Mad Dog]

Actually this is the perfect facisist storm. And Obama is taking full advantage.

[zdunklee]

Toyota is not doing good, they lost almost 9 billion last year, their first posted loss in 50 years, so I hope that was sarcasm on your part Howie. Wagoner needed to go at GM anyway, he was a pretty out of touch tard as it was.

Edit: Also why does everyone seem to forget that Bush fired AIG's CEO first, it's not like Obama was the first one to do this.

[Mad Dog]

Toyota is not doing good, they lost almost 9 billion last year, their first posted loss in 50 years, so I hope that was sarcasm on your part Howie. Wagoner needed to go at GM anyway, he was a pretty out of touch tard as it was.

Except that the move to fire Wagoner needed to be done by the Executive Board of GM and not the royal decree of Obama. Look out!! Bye bye Big business, hello Big Brother. Or worse.

[zdunklee]

See above post, Bush set that precedent first.

[Mad Dog]

See above post, Bush set that precedent first.

Who cares Who set the precident? Bush tee'd up the ball, and Obama is hitting it out of the park. And America is getting steam rolled.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

GM and Chrysler have been doing bad for years...remember the 'employee pricing' they offered like 3 years ago?

Toyota may have turned a bad year because it was bad for everyone...who would go out and buy a new truck when they just lost their house....

well maybe to pull the camper they'll be living in

[zdunklee]

I dunno, I am taking a wait and see attitude, to me GM and Ford are companies that are actually worth trying to save (chrysler not so much as they don't employ near the numbers of the other two), as are the banks, and AIG is the only truly useless company that has been given money so far.

Also he wasn't fired by Obama, he was asked to step down as a condition of getting more money, so he could have stayed if he was willing to try bankruptcy.

[Mad Dog]

GM has their own set of blame to bear. Instead of filing for Chapter 11 to sort out there mess on their own, they had to run to Washington with their hat in hand and Bush was happy to help. Now a new Sheriff is in town with a Socialist/Fascist agenda to push and now there will be Hell to pay with a ripple effect for all of Us. Don't think Obama will be content to stop with the Banking Industry and the Auto Industry. Next up: Health Care.

[-Jiggy-]

See above post, Bush set that precedent first.

Who cares Who set the precident? Bush tee'd up the ball, and Obama is hitting it out of the park. And America is getting steam rolled.

I agree Mad Dod. Everyone wants to automatically point the finger at the other party anytime stuff like this is brought up. Most politicians are the same no matter what side your on. This is why we need more people voting for other third parties so that it's not just Repubs and Democrats calling the shots. Besides a few moral issues I can't really tell the 2 apart these days.

[sunshyne]

GM has their own set of blame to bear. Instead of filing for Chapter 11 to sort out there mess on their own, they had to run to Washington with their hat in hand and Bush was happy to help. Now a new Sheriff is in town with a Socialist/Fascist agenda to push and now there will be Hell to pay with a ripple effect for all of Us. Don't think Obama will be content to stop with the Banking Industry and the Auto Industry. Next up: Health Care.

Already started. The tobacco tax increase that will start on Wednesday. (increase from $0.39 to $1.10)

The money that is made from that will go to fund the "lower class" people that make too much to be on medicare but "can't afford health insurance" to be put on a gov. run healthcare like medicare. The thing that pisses me off about it is, I would be able to get health insurance through this program, but I pay for my own health insurance through my work.

This program is going to basically help the dead beats that all the other new programs are helping. The ones who got mortgages they can't afford, etc. This money is going to help people that make up to $140,000 a year (lower class?, really?).

I don't make even close to half of that, but I live within my means and pay for my health insurance.

You know this is a way for the gov. to speed up the completely Gov. run health care plan that Oblama preached about when he was running. But like I've said before, ask Britain how well thats working out for them. They have more people dying in hospitals from staph infections and things they can't afford to treat because of Gov. regulations.

[zdunklee]

I'm not blaming either party, both Bush and Obama have done basically the exact same things. At this point Obama hasn't done anything worse than what Bush did, so that is why I am taking a wait and see attitude, I mean we will know in 2 months what is going on anyway.


We have always been partly a socialist country as it is, not like it has ever truly been a free market system, because that would completely fail.

[Mad Dog]

I'm not blaming either party, both Bush and Obama have done basically the exact same things. At this point Obama hasn't done anything worse than what Bush did, so that is why I am taking a wait and see attitude, I mean we will know in 2 months what is going on anyway.


We have always been partly a socialist country as it is, not like it has ever truly been a free market system, because that would completely fail.

Your right, just NEVER EVER to this extent. Obama has crossed some lines that even good ole Franklin D Roosevelt wouldn't even cross. He is executing a cross between Chicago Machine politics on a national level and using our Financial Crisis and "Global Warming" as a lever for his brand of Socialism.

[zdunklee]

I still fail to see any lines that Obama crossed so far that Bush didn't also cross. I'm not saying it won't happen, but so far he has not crossed any line Bush didn't cross first. Hell the whole 700 Billion bank bailout was all done by the Bush administration (and two of the three AIG bailouts, and the initial Auto Bailout). Once Obama goes past where Bush has already been then maybe I will start to worry.


Anyone who still believes "global warming" after the Earth COOLED down this year is an idiot.

[Mad Dog]

As far as I know No other President in American History has fired a CEO of a major corporation and installed his own Lackey.

As far as I know, no other President in American History has forced the sale of an American car company to a foreign car company. I.E. Chrysler sold to Fiat.

[professorpinasheep]

As far as I know No other President in American History has fired a CEO of a major corporation and installed his own Lackey.

As far as I know, no other President in American History has forced the sale of an American car company to a foreign car company. I.E. Chrysler sold to Fiat.

To be fair (and full disclosure, I am a conservative for the most part), neither action was/is forced. Both companies chose these directions because they didn't want to enter into bankruptcy, fearing the PR fiasco would kill any chance of a recovery. It's a shame, because a reorganization might've given them a far better chance at survival than becoming partially owned/operated by a government or foreign entity.

Chrysler is not being sold to Fiat. Fiat is offering to buy a 35% stake in order to gain access to the engineering of some of Chrysler's smaller vehicles, as well as their transmissions and other facets of manufacturing.

Technically, Obama will not be directly choosing GM's new CEO. That's up the advisory panel he's set up. I'm not naive enough to think that he won't have any influence, but for optimism's sake I have to hope an intelligent decision will be made.

All that being said, I really don't like the direction this is going, either. I'm hoping it'll turn out for the best. However, the best we may be able to hope for is a short-term screwup that allows people to see the far left for what they are. Should that happen, hopefully the conservatives will have gotten their act together in the next two years and have a chance at evening things out or perhaps even seizing a majority.

[professorpinasheep]

Toyota is not doing good, they lost almost 9 billion last year, their first posted loss in 50 years, so I hope that was sarcasm on your part Howie. Wagoner needed to go at GM anyway, he was a pretty out of touch tard as it was.

"Doing good" is all relative these days. A loss of 9 billion is a pittance compared to the 30.9B GM lost, and Ford wasn't much better. I hate to say it, and I drive a Chevy Impala, but I'd really have to consider a Japanese-made vehicle when the time comes (hopefully at least another 5 years.. this car is awesome, runs like a champ.. but they revamped the Impala line).

[professorpinasheep]

I'm not blaming either party, both Bush and Obama have done basically the exact same things. At this point Obama hasn't done anything worse than what Bush did, so that is why I am taking a wait and see attitude, I mean we will know in 2 months what is going on anyway.

Really? Bush passed a bill to spend over a trillion dollars? With a good chunk of that dedicated towards establishing a doomed national healthcare system? I think I missed that one. As much as "Bush's War" (as some people like to refer to it as) put us in debt, our current President's budget is taking national debt to ever-growing heights. I realize that having some national debt is essential, provided the money's being used in promising ways.. but I don't see that right now. I hope I'm wrong.

We have always been partly a socialist country as it is, not like it has ever truly been a free market system, because that would completely fail.

Perhaps we have, but never so much as recently. We're turning into a nanny state, where the government begins to make decisions for the people. It's time society remembered that politicians are supposed to work towards establishing the will of the people.. of course, given most people's attitudes nowadays that may not be the best approach. I think we're beginning to reap what we've sown.

[zdunklee]

As far as I know No other President in American History has fired a CEO of a major corporation and installed his own Lackey.

Bush did this exact thing, he fired AIG's CEO and they had Liddy put there in his place, I told you that much earlier on in this very thread. I don't consider myself either party, but you can't say one did it and ignore the fact the the other party did the exact same thing.

[zdunklee]

I'm not blaming either party, both Bush and Obama have done basically the exact same things. At this point Obama hasn't done anything worse than what Bush did, so that is why I am taking a wait and see attitude, I mean we will know in 2 months what is going on anyway.

Really? Bush passed a bill to spend over a trillion dollars? With a good chunk of that dedicated towards establishing a doomed national healthcare system? I think I missed that one. As much as "Bush's War" (as some people like to refer to it as) put us in debt, our current President's budget is taking national debt to ever-growing heights. I realize that having some national debt is essential, provided the money's being used in promising ways.. but I don't see that right now. I hope I'm wrong.

We have always been partly a socialist country as it is, not like it has ever truly been a free market system, because that would completely fail.

Perhaps we have, but never so much as recently. We're turning into a nanny state, where the government begins to make decisions for the people. It's time society remembered that politicians are supposed to work towards establishing the will of the people.. of course, given most people's attitudes nowadays that may not be the best approach. I think we're beginning to reap what we've sown.

What bill actually spends over a trillion dollars, the budget has projections from republican news orgs that say that, but the dems say different, so who is right? It's all smoke and mirrors from both sides and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Both parties are to blame anyway as Bush started the spend, spend, spend trend by more than doubling our national deficit during the time he was in office and Obama is just continuing it. Like someone else said minus a few insignificant differences that don't really matter to the middle ground people neither party is really any different.

To many people vote based on non-issues like abortion and stem cell research or in this election color of skin. Until that stops we are gonna be stuck with shitty leaders and shitty corupt congressman.

As far as a nanny state, the same types of things were tried during the Great Depression, albeit with smaller amounts of money but compared to today and adjusted for inflation I bet it was not that different. Really this mess is all the bank's fault anyway. There seems to be a trend with every major depression in US history and it being linked to the banks.

[Mad Dog]

Don't worry, we'll have another "Great Depression" soon since there won'nt be any money left for the private sector to spend, or if there is it will be so inflated as to be worthless. Thanks Big Brother!!

[zdunklee]

Don't worry, we'll have another "Great Depression" soon since there won'nt be any money left for the private sector to spend, or if there is it will be so inflated as to be worthless. Thanks Big Brother!!

According to most "experts" we are experiencing something right now that is pretty much the exact same thing as the Great Depression already.

[Mad Dog]

Don't worry, we'll have another "Great Depression" soon since there won't be any money left for the private sector to spend, or if there is it will be so inflated as to be worthless. Thanks Big Brother!!

According to most "experts" we are experiencing something right now that is pretty much the exact same thing as the Great Depression already.

Yup, and it will take monumental Gobment spending and Plenty of G-20 ass licking and groveling about world forgiveness of American sins to avoid catastrophe. We will have to sacrifice and it won't be easy. We may need to tighten our belt and install comprehensive wage and profit controls or even caps. This way Big Brother is in a much better position to wipe our collective asses and choose for us what is best for us.

[krystal]

My beefs:

A) The unions should have become obsolete 20 years ago. I understand they were begun to create better working environments, but do you see any sweatshops here?

B) America became a major world power because of industry. We made stuff and sent it all over the world. Now we import crap instead, and, like the car industry, we out source our jobs.

C) The cigarette tax pisses me off. It's not fair for me to pair for something that nonsmokers are using. They'd make more money if liquor taxes went up, instead (of course, there would also be a riot).

D) I'd rather see a nation wide sales tax than an income tax. Then everyone has to pay based on how much they spend, and there are no breaks, and it keeps the more upper class from spending half their earnings in taxes.

That's all I can think of for the moment. I don't even know if any of those make any sense, but I don't feel like going back over them.

[zdunklee]

I agree with all your points, the majority of unions have lost touch with reality, but then again so have the companies that employ them by the looks of it.

We outsource our jobs because people are too damn cheap to pay for american made products anymore. For example my dad repairs cars, new rotors from american companies cost at least $70 for two, the chinese ones cost about $35. Guess what ones most people choose to get? Now guess what ones actually last 4 times longer?

For the cig tax, I wish they would tax alcohol just as much, might as well get the money somehow and personally a couple bucks wouldn't change my drinking habits at all.

[airhornahole]

I agree with all your points, the majority of unions have lost touch with reality, but then again so have the companies that employ them by the looks of it.

We outsource our jobs because people are too damn cheap to pay for american made products anymore. For example my dad repairs cars, new rotors from american companies cost at least $70 for two, the chinese ones cost about $35. Guess what ones most people choose to get? Now guess what ones actually last 4 times longer?

For the cig tax, I wish they would tax alcohol just as much, might as well get the money somehow and personally a couple bucks wouldn't change my drinking habits at all.

I agree with the unions comment. Also, taxing alcohol would be a good idea. They could also force all the liquor sales to be completed by government run stores and eliminate the small store owner because they don't contribute anything to society but drunks.

How about if the government just establishes an income tax law without all the loopholes to prevent the rich from contributing next to nothing with their high cost bean counters?

How about if the US starts putting a tariff on goods shipped into the states? Like all the other countries do to us. How about if the government requires all companies that sell goods in the US have a factory that builds said parts in the US? Like China forces from all US companies.

The government is going to do everything they can to protect themselves and their friends. All of whom are rich. They will bend the laws so they and the other rich will always keep their money while the rest of us wither and die on the vine. Until that philosophy changes in Washington, this country is doomed to continue on the same path.

[speedbump]

Anyone who still believes "global warming" after the Earth COOLED down this year is an idiot.

You don't know how "global warming" works, do you?

Make a thread, and there will be fisticuffs.

[-Jiggy-]

Anyone who still believes "global warming" after the Earth COOLED down this year is an idiot.

You don't know how "global warming" works, do you?

Make a thread, and there will be fisticuffs.

and you do know how global warming works??

Please enlighten us because this is an issue even professional scientists seem to disagree on. Instead of talking down to zdunklee why don't you let us know the inner workings of global warming.

[cuppie]

I can't wait for my auto insurance to go up starting in July. I hope that bitch Granholm runs her and her stupid mole back to Canada. It won't happen though. Obama loves her for some reason. Maybe because she's running the state with the worst economy in the country and he thinks she's smart.

[zdunklee]

Anyone who still believes "global warming" after the Earth COOLED down this year is an idiot.

You don't know how "global warming" works, do you?

Make a thread, and there will be fisticuffs.

Yes I do know how it works I have taken several natural resource management classes and Enviromental Science classes. It is really termed wrong and should be called global climate change cause not every location would be warming, some would in fact be cooling off as the Earth's average temp would RISE. Well the Earth's average temp FELL this last year and no one knows why. It is the first time since at least the 1950's that the average temperature of the Earth actually decreased.

Edit: I should say it cooled for the first time since the 1950's without a La Nina or El Nino effect, sorry for the general statement with this major fact missing.

[-Jiggy-]

I can't wait for my auto insurance to go up starting in July. I hope that bitch Granholm runs her and her stupid mole back to Canada. It won't happen though. Obama loves her for some reason. Maybe because she's running the state with the worst economy in the country and he thinks she's smart.

[Mad Dog]

This took a weird turn...

[krystal]

I agree with all your points, the majority of unions have lost touch with reality, but then again so have the companies that employ them by the looks of it.

We outsource our jobs because people are too damn cheap to pay for american made products anymore. For example my dad repairs cars, new rotors from american companies cost at least $70 for two, the chinese ones cost about $35. Guess what ones most people choose to get? Now guess what ones actually last 4 times longer?

For the cig tax, I wish they would tax alcohol just as much, might as well get the money somehow and personally a couple bucks wouldn't change my drinking habits at all.

I agree with the unions comment. Also, taxing alcohol would be a good idea. They could also force all the liquor sales to be completed by government run stores and eliminate the small store owner because they don't contribute anything to society but drunks.

How about if the government just establishes an income tax law without all the loopholes to prevent the rich from contributing next to nothing with their high cost bean counters?

How about if the US starts putting a tariff on goods shipped into the states? Like all the other countries do to us. How about if the government requires all companies that sell goods in the US have a factory that builds said parts in the US? Like China forces from all US companies.

The government is going to do everything they can to protect themselves and their friends. All of whom are rich. They will bend the laws so they and the other rich will always keep their money while the rest of us wither and die on the vine. Until that philosophy changes in Washington, this country is doomed to continue on the same path.

I believe we should tax the hell out of goods that come from AMERICAN companies but have to be imported. They should be taxed for sending out and sending back in. But not allowed to change their prices. They shouldn't compensate for not contributing.

[Mad Dog]

So you are advocating price controls? Who decides which products should be price controlled and which ones shouldn't? Oh this is a self answering question right now, cause it will be Democrats in the House and on the Hill that will get this say. And don't think that price controls are not in the works because I guarantee they are. Krystal, may I ask what products your company produces? Doesn't it scare the Hell out of you that the idiots on Capitol Hill may one day be mandating YOUR business?? What ever it is?

[krystal]

So you are advocating price controls? Who decides which products should be price controlled and which ones shouldn't? Oh this is a self answering question right now, cause it will be Democrats in the House and on the Hill that will get this say. And don't think that price controls are not in the works because I guarantee they are. Krystal, may I ask what products your company produces? Doesn't it scare the Hell out of you that the idiots on Capitol Hill may one day be mandating YOUR business?? What ever it is?

Well, my company produces lawsuits. But I used to work for a manufacturing company that made rubber hose parts for GM (which my mom worked on - she's been laid off), Ford (where I worked), Chrysler (sister), Jeep, and Honda. I'm not saying prices should be mandated, I'm saying that they should have to pay to outsource so isn't so much a viable option.

As I think I have noted before, the reason America became a big, strong, handsome country was through industry. Which we do not have so much of anymore.

For example, last month when China proposed a bailout, the stock market went up. Why? People are idiots. The Chinese do not obtain enough goods from us to really affect our economy. We obtain from them, not so much the other way around.

What I do not understand is why we have become what my Dad calls a "Service Country" because we make fewer and fewer goods. A majority of the big businesses we have now have nothing to do with creation of goods. We have become an importing country rather than an exporting one.

It's cyclical: 1)You create jobs; 2) You make stuff; 3) People with jobs buy stuff.

Why should anyone be rewarded for exporting jobs?

[Mad Dog]

If they are stupid crappy jobs like nut polishing or buggy whip manufacturer, India can have them. I want to build new high tech complicated stuff. Besides, why would a company that is on the margins want to stick around the United States to build their stuff when we just elected the biggest Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Business Social Leftist since FDR. Just so they can get the living B-Jesus taxed out of them??

[zdunklee]

So you are advocating price controls? Who decides which products should be price controlled and which ones shouldn't? Oh this is a self answering question right now, cause it will be Democrats in the House and on the Hill that will get this say. And don't think that price controls are not in the works because I guarantee they are. Krystal, may I ask what products your company produces? Doesn't it scare the Hell out of you that the idiots on Capitol Hill may one day be mandating YOUR business?? What ever it is?

Well, my company produces lawsuits. But I used to work for a manufacturing company that made rubber hose parts for GM (which my mom worked on - she's been laid off), Ford (where I worked), Chrysler (sister), Jeep, and Honda. I'm not saying prices should be mandated, I'm saying that they should have to pay to outsource so isn't so much a viable option.

As I think I have noted before, the reason America became a big, strong, handsome country was through industry. Which we do not have so much of anymore.

For example, last month when China proposed a bailout, the stock market went up. Why? People are idiots. The Chinese do not obtain enough goods from us to really affect our economy. We obtain from them, not so much the other way around.

What I do not understand is why we have become what my Dad calls a "Service Country" because we make fewer and fewer goods. A majority of the big businesses we have now have nothing to do with creation of goods. We have become an importing country rather than an exporting one.

It's cyclical: 1)You create jobs; 2) You make stuff; 3) People with jobs buy stuff.

Why should anyone be rewarded for exporting jobs?

Krystal, we have become a service economy because we are simply catching up to Europe and many other developed nations. Those nations have been service based for many years already and in most history the longer a nation is around the more service based it becomes. China is currently where we were in the 1950's and 60's as far as manufacturing is concerened and eventually if everything that normally happens to countries holds true will also become a service economy. Most entry level econ classes now teach that this is what happens, which is where I learned all this from.

[professorpinasheep]

I can't wait for my auto insurance to go up starting in July. I hope that bitch Granholm runs her and her stupid mole back to Canada. It won't happen though. Obama loves her for some reason. Maybe because she's running the state with the worst economy in the country and he thinks she's smart.

Yeah, I about crapped my pants soon after Obama was elected and Granholm's name was mentioned as a possibility for either the Supreme Court or the Commerce Secretary.. What a joke. Going from governing the country's worst state economy (and one that is always near shutdown when budget time comes) to Commerce Secretary? Wow.

[zdunklee]

Personally I wouldn't mind her going to the supreme court.....at least it would get her the eff out of Michigan.