Club Gitmo

[Mad Dog]

Hey Barack, We don't want those stinking terrorists on our front lawn!!! So apparantly those son's of bitches weren't Boy Scouts and Altar boys after all. Before you close down Club Gitmo and turn loose a bunch of murdering thugs because President Bush was mean, you should take the pulse of the American People first. Not even your fellow Lefties in Congress were willing to fall on that sword.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8060350.stm

[thewolfdogg]

The Daily Show last night really hit this subject hard...

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hulu.com/watch/73823/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-guantanamo-baywatch---the-final-season#s-p1-sr-i1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.hulu.com/watch/73823/the-dai ... s-p1-sr-i1</a><!-- m -->

Put them in maximum security prison. Do you realize what will happen to them when a bunch of white power a-hole skinheads realize who they are? What kind of coordination can they accomplish in max-sec where nobody knows who or where they are? I for one would love to see them enter the regular prison system. What will happen to them will be far worse than whatever Gitmo did to them and on top of that, the government isn't technically sponsoring it. Win-Win for the American people.

[professorpinasheep]

Yeah.. that's pretty much Obama's MO at this point. All talk, no walk. When it comes to making the really hard decisions (promised tax cuts, Gitmo, pork spending, government waste, etc, etc), he really hasn't shown himself to be what everyone was hoping he was. Imagine the surprise to those of us who didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

[sunshyne]

Phil Valentine seems to think that Oblama "changed" his mind, and that it wasn't such a hot idea. But rather than him looking all flip-floppy, he got his D - goons to say "we don't want to do this" so then all he had to say, "oh gosh, okay guys, if you don't really want to do this". So he didnt' look stupid.

[Philly Mike]

Well first off, he didn't change his mind, he still stands firm that he wants it closed. The place just being there now has scarred our reputation amongst the international community, even with our allies, this is why it needs to go. Now the whole thing of putting these guys on US soil is not the brightest thing to do, it does have the potential to cause problems. However there are other bases used for interrogation that they should be sent to.

you can say what you want but he has already followed through with some of his promises, there is no way for a person to follow through with all of them right away but he is getting things done, or at least doing what he can. He can't just create law so yeah he can't automatically give the tax cuts or get rid of pork spending, but he is doing a hell of a lot more than just sitting there and saying stay the course. Shit as much of an idiot I thought bush was he still did a lot of good too so I don't want to hear anyone saying I am left or sticking up for obama because I am "liberal" or whatever the hell anyone else has tried to call me. I have been called conservative and liberal, I can't be both.

[Mad Dog]

Well first off, he didn't change his mind, he still stands firm that he wants it closed.

Your right, he hasn't changed his mind, He got shot down by his own party.

The place just being there now has scarred our reputation amongst the international community, even with our allies, this is why it needs to go.

Personally, I could care less about our precious reputation. Club Gitmo not only needs to stay there but we should be actively seeking to put even more Terrorists in there.

Now the whole thing of putting these guys on US soil is not the brightest thing to do, it does have the potential to cause problems. However there are other bases used for interrogation that they should be sent to.

Under the "Mad Dog Plan" there will be no need for putting them on US soil. They are fine where they are at and are damn lucky they havn't been put to the firing squad.

you can say what you want but he has already followed through with some of his promises, there is no way for a person to follow through with all of them right away but he is getting things done, or at least doing what he can. He can't just create law so yeah he can't automatically give the tax cuts or get rid of pork spending, but he is doing a hell of a lot more than just sitting there and saying stay the course.

If you like the quintessential Tax and Spend Elitist Big Brother style government, You betcha, He's staying on course with his promises.

Shit as much of an idiot I thought bush was he still did a lot of good too

Judging by the rest of the world reaction when the Obama Administration clued in the rest of the free world that it was his intention to pawn as many of these boy scouts off on them as he could, they all howled in protest and refused to take them. So it seems that now in hind sight that Club Gitmo was a pretty handy place to have for Bush to house these prisoners.

so I don't want to hear anyone saying I am left or sticking up for obama because I am "liberal" or whatever the hell anyone else has tried to call me. I have been called conservative and liberal, I can't be both.

Hey Philly, we are all complex people here who have the capacity to fall on the liberal side of things on one issue and the conservative side of things on other issues. I'm very conservative when it comes to economic issues, National Security issues, and Crime and Punishment issues. I'm very liberal when it comes to personal freedom, religion and sexual issues. Most of us are some kind of combination. It's ok to be free of thought.

[Mad Dog]

This will be a fun artical for this thread.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/...8366.story

Let me hi-light a couple of paragraphs:

Obama: Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. And I believe that those decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people.

But I also believe that too often our government made decisions based upon fear rather than foresight, and all too often trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions.

Cheney: It is a fact that only detainees of the highest intelligence value were ever subjected to enhanced interrogation. You've heard endlessly about waterboarding. It happened to three terrorists. One of them was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11, who has also boasted about his beheading of Daniel Pearl.

[professorpinasheep]

The place just being there now has scarred our reputation amongst the international community, even with our allies, this is why it needs to go.

What are we, in high school? What is the obsession people have with being regarded as the most popular and most-favorably looked upon nation? It brings to mind a quote plastered all over MY high school- "What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular."

You can say what you want but he has already followed through with some of his promises...He can't just create law so yeah he can't automatically give the tax cuts or get rid of pork spending, but he is doing a hell of a lot more than just sitting there and saying stay the course.

No, he can't create law and automatically give tax cuts. I also thought the President couldn't take over a massive corporation, but he's done it not once.. but three times (Chrysler, GM and AIG)!

He's already admitted the cut he promised to 98% of Americans is not feasible. You think that platform earned him a vote or two? And now he's already gone back on it. No, he can't just say "No more pork barrel spending.. make it so!" and wave a magic wand.. but he could actually attempt to stand behind his words. His spending package (some people referred to it as a stimulus) was ridiculously full of pork and earmarks, and that was after campaigning about ending government waste and increasing government efficiency. You are aware that government employees (average salary: ~74,000/year) are getting raises this year (bringing their average salary to ~76,000/year), right? Yeah.. wait to follow through.

Also, with all the "green" legislation his party is proposing (and don't tell me he'd even consider vetoing it), a lot of people are going to be losing jobs. Hell, there's even a provision in the new climate bill that provides three years of special unemployment benefits to those whose jobs will be lost as a result of the "American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009." Do you think that'd be in there if it wasn't going to be an issue? It also does nothing to protect the poor from the rate hikes it'll bring about. I could go on and on, but this is too long already.
(http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/4443...mate_bill/)

as much of an idiot I thought bush was he still did a lot of good too so I don't want to hear anyone saying I am left or sticking up for obama because I am "liberal" or whatever the hell anyone else has tried to call me. I have been called conservative and liberal, I can't be both.

You know why you thought Bush and his boys did a lot of good? Because they weren't even CLOSE to conservatives when it comes to most issues. They spent money like liberals, passed rather liberal legislation (aside from the GOP tenets of abortion/stem-cell issues, the "sanctity of marriage", etc) and were very short-sighted. If not for the war, I bet Bush Jr. could've been one of the most popular presidents ever.. hell, his approval ratings were still better than the Dem-controlled Congress in the last two years (which isn't saying much, because both were pathetic).

Sorry for the longevity. Call it a stress-release.

[Philly Mike]

What are we, in high school? What is the obsession people have with being regarded as the most popular and most-favorably looked upon nation? It brings to mind a quote plastered all over MY high school- "What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular."

what does high school have to do with it? The "obsession" is because if people don't like you they won't work with you. Seeing as the whole world is basically connected now we all need to work together as much as we can, allies are one of the most important things if ever an emergency should arise, if you push them all away because "what is popular is not always right" then you lose. The Roman empire made the mistake of thinking they could go without any help and be all powerful and you see what happened there.

No, he can't create law and automatically give tax cuts. I also thought the President couldn't take over a massive corporation, but he's done it not once.. but three times (Chrysler, GM and AIG)!

He's already admitted the cut he promised to 98% of Americans is not feasible. You think that platform earned him a vote or two? And now he's already gone back on it. No, he can't just say "No more pork barrel spending.. make it so!" and wave a magic wand.. but he could actually attempt to stand behind his words. His spending package (some people referred to it as a stimulus) was ridiculously full of pork and earmarks, and that was after campaigning about ending government waste and increasing government efficiency. You are aware that government employees (average salary: ~74,000/year) are getting raises this year (bringing their average salary to ~76,000/year), right? Yeah.. wait to follow through.

Okay again, it takes time to get to all the points. Yes I never expected him to make good on every promise, and he still will work to get as much of a tax cut as possible. I don't think he wants to make things worse.

Also, with all the "green" legislation his party is proposing (and don't tell me he'd even consider vetoing it), a lot of people are going to be losing jobs. Hell, there's even a provision in the new climate bill that provides three years of special unemployment benefits to those whose jobs will be lost as a result of the "American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009." Do you think that'd be in there if it wasn't going to be an issue? It also does nothing to protect the poor from the rate hikes it'll bring about. I could go on and on, but this is too long already.
(http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/4443...mate_bill/)

Well as far as this goes in the article you sent, this whole article decides to set aside some details and completely take the right of the argument so I can't say either or on that, and any other articles that are on the right point out a lot of good and according to even the article you sent it looks like it will create a lot more job than any lost. Regardless, this is not a bill that Obama himself made so it has nothing to do with any promises he made or anything I was talking about. I understand the fact that hey may sign it in but compromises have to be made to get anything through, I mean with support from USCAP and The Nature Conservancy I can't see how this can be all that bad.

You know why you thought Bush and his boys did a lot of good? Because they weren't even CLOSE to conservatives when it comes to most issues. They spent money like liberals, passed rather liberal legislation (aside from the GOP tenets of abortion/stem-cell issues, the "sanctity of marriage", etc) and were very short-sighted. If not for the war, I bet Bush Jr. could've been one of the most popular presidents ever.. hell, his approval ratings were still better than the Dem-controlled Congress in the last two years (which isn't saying much, because both were pathetic).

Not even close to conservatives??? How can you say that at all, the dems even had problems with the way he spent let alone all of the other topics you've mentioned. There were very few things he did right. I didn't think the good he did that much good. Sorry about the wrong wording with a lot, I should have said some good. there were a ton of stupid decisions he made. Even besides the war he would have screwed up a lot, the biggest problem he had was the fact that him and mostly chieny were so corrupt that they thought the president had more power than he should and the vice had way more power than any vice president should ever have.

As far as your comments mad dog I pretty much responded to most of it through this, but when you say about the big brother and stuff like that it is a little too blown out of proportion. He will not be able to pass any kind of bill stating too much control, no one will agree with that. This is why we have a democracy. One thing he will do is try to work with congress as he already has. Obama actually does work with others. If this was McCain who won I would be saying the same thing. When I found the 2 people who were running for president were Obama and McCain I thought it was great because they are both smart, and the biggest point of anyone who should be president, they actually work across party lines. Regardless what you think of Obama he actually does try to work with others.

I know there will probably be a response to this but it will be useless to respond too much more because this will just start to go in circles and I don't feel like going into one of those again. That plus the amount of conservatives in here it will go to more than just 2 on 1 here.

[krystal]

The major idea behind bringing some of the detainees into prisons in America is the fact that we are sending some to other countries. We can't expect other countries to take these people and not man-up and take some ourselves. How would we feel if another country wanted to send some of its prisoners to us? We'd be pissed and want to tell them to deal with their crap themselves.

I understand the arguments for closing Gitmo, because it does hurt our cred with the international community. It tells them that we condone the use of torture techniques to get information, which puts us on par (in other countries' eyes) with less developed, more barbaric countries.

And, just to put this point out there, the only reason I am against "advanced interrogation techniques" is because I took history classes in both high school and college, where we talked about the Spanish Inquisition, where people would admit guilt just to get the tormentor to stop, or to be put out of their misery. NOT that I'm saying that the techniques we have used is the same as the heinous torture that was used then, but they both use the same ideas hoping for the same outcomes, which is admission of guilt and more suspects.

[stopsign]

Bush wasn't close to a true conservative fiscally, I don't really know how you could argue against that.

[professorpinasheep]

You know why you thought Bush and his boys did a lot of good? Because they weren't even CLOSE to conservatives when it comes to most issues. They spent money like liberals, passed rather liberal legislation (aside from the GOP tenets of abortion/stem-cell issues, the "sanctity of marriage", etc) and were very short-sighted. If not for the war, I bet Bush Jr. could've been one of the most popular presidents ever.. hell, his approval ratings were still better than the Dem-controlled Congress in the last two years (which isn't saying much, because both were pathetic).

Not even close to conservatives??? How can you say that at all, the dems even had problems with the way he spent let alone all of the other topics you've mentioned. There were very few things he did right. I didn't think the good he did that much good. Sorry about the wrong wording with a lot, I should have said some good. there were a ton of stupid decisions he made. Even besides the war he would have screwed up a lot, the biggest problem he had was the fact that him and mostly chieny were so corrupt that they thought the president had more power than he should and the vice had way more power than any vice president should ever have.

You seem to be confusing "conservative" with "Republican." They're not synonymous. You can be a Republican without being a conservative.. that's more evident now than it ever has been. Specter's defection, and the Sens. from Maine (especially Collins) are the most obvious examples.

I would argue Bush did plenty right, and he did plenty wrong.. Just like most Presidents before him. Yes, the Dems didn't always agree with what he was doing.. that wouldn't make sense.. because then they'd be falling in line with the Republican line of thought.. and that would turn off liberal voters. But Bush spent and spent, and not just on the war, like most liberals do. He enacted crazy amounts of social programs, like most liberals do. He bailed out large corporations, like liberals would do. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Everyone likes to say the people at the top are corrupt, but rarely produce hard evidence and usually bring up some conspiracy theory. I'll give you Cheney on corruption, though.. You need look no further than Halliburton to back up that claim. It's not that I hate Obama as a person, like so many seem to.. he's charismatic and intelligent. I wouldn't mind sittin down for a beer with him (we all know he's down with that, right? ) I just don't agree with any of his ideology or the direction he's leading the country.

[Philly Mike]

Looks like obama is working to get the best of both sides of the argument. He is talking about closing gitmo because of the stigma with it, but he is not saying anything about Bagram, a place that does not have the stigma attached to it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31046933/

some people will say he is no good for it, but it is smart politics to do this. As long as he keeps some of the techniques used at gitmo from the place, or at least keeps the whole thing under wraps, he should be able to work with the place too.

[Mad Dog]

Obama has plans to put Gitmo terrorists in Detroit? I'll be willing to bet Michigan Democrats were not anticipating this. Way to go!! I guess the D in Democrat actually stands fo Dumb Ass.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090802/NE...EATHER0802

[Wiener Poopie]

This could reopen a closed prison creating hundreds of jobs! Yeah!

[zdunklee]

This could reopen a closed prison creating hundreds of jobs! Yeah!

I don't think that would happen, I mean it would open up a closed prison, but more than likely it would be gaurded by the armed forces and not any gaurds that were at the prison before it closed.

[Wiener Poopie]

Regardless, I see no problem with it.

[zdunklee]

I think if it doesn't create new jobs then there is no reason to spend the money, but if by moving them it means more jobs here in MI then it should be done.