In my opinion

[Arpikarhu]

yeah, the hardline libertarians have some really insane ideas. No post office is far less destructive than no public schools, no polic departments, no fire departments, no federally or state run highways, no anti-trust laws, it's just way too out there

the reform movement feels much the same way except in the case of public schools. the goverment should not be educating children. its not their job.

having a child is a personal and private decision. if i am not involved in that decision why am i required to help finance it? you want a child? pay for it.

[Ken'sPen]

its not based in the reality that you grew up in/learned about in school

or that has ever existed in any nation in the history of the world.

[Keyser Soze]

Arpikarhu wrote:

we want it privatized and not due to government surveillance. libertarians are not conspiracy nuts.

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13. Postal Service

The Issue: The present postal system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages government surveillance of private correspondence.

You are however correct about phasing in their ideals, in most cases they realize it would be a process that would not happen overnight.

But they actually think the gov't is tracking their mail, its in their national platform.

[Mad]

Government has a purpose, but that purpose shouldn't be a form of "workfare" or white welfare as some like to call it.

Go to your local (Town) government offices and observe it for a week or two. You'll most likely see about 10 to 20% doing work and the other 80 to 90% avioding it like the plague. The same goes for most company's, which is really a fucking shame, so much for that good old work ethic.

[Arpikarhu]

hence the reason for the large shift towards the more rational reform movement.

[Mad]

Exactly.

[HedCold]

its not based in the reality that you grew up in/learned about in school

or that has ever existed in any nation in the history of the world.

worst reason not to do something ever.

[Ken'sPen]

worst reason not to do something ever.

how's this for a reason...
we live in the greatest nation on Earth,
it's not perfect, but it's damn good for most of us.......

sooooo let's roll the dice and tear the whole thing down in the hopes that a completely untested economic model might make things a little better?

the "economic forces" that are supposed to regulate this society would be overwhelmed by many other forces that exist in the real world... forces that daily influence people to do things that aren't in their best interest.

[Keyser Soze]

You guys sound more like small-government conservatives than libertarians.

[Mad]

How about we start shit canning all these excessive government departments, a.k.a. DHS.

Redundancy is a waste of time, money and effort, much like Ken's thought processes.

[Arpikarhu]

how's this for a reason...
we live in the greatest nation on Earth,
it's not perfect, but it's damn good for most of us.......

this flag waving bullshit is lame and off the point.

sooooo let's roll the dice and tear the whole thing down in the hopes that a completely untested economic model might make things a little better?

a gradual shift to wards true free market principles is not tearing the whole thing down and rollinng the dice

the "economic forces" that are supposed to regulate this society would be overwhelmed by many other forces that exist in the real world... forces that daily influence people to do things that aren't in their best interest.
_________________

what forces and explain how they would conflict.
as for people doing things not in their best interest, tough for them.

[Ken'sPen]

Arpi,
Libertarians claim that there is no need for Government to regulate business in any way...
because market forces will regulate....

But this assumes that all businesses are operating on the up and up, and desire to long term entitites...

It ignores the George Bushes of the world, who will willingly run a business into the ground, as long as they cash out first.

[HedCold]

It ignores the George Bushes of the world, who will willingly run a business into the ground, as long as they cash out first.

our current system sure came down hard on that guy! i wonder what he's doing these days...

[Arpikarhu]

Arpi,
Libertarians claim that there is no need for Government to regulate business in any way...
because market forces will regulate....

But this assumes that all businesses are operating on the up and up, and desire to long term entitites...

It ignores the George Bushes of the world, who will willingly run a business into the ground, as long as they cash out first.

,
the point being that a business not running on the up and up willl not be frequented by the consumer and be forced to change its ways. if not then the public does not care about the way they do business and they may continue. government should not be in the business of mommying us cause we arent willing to take responsibility for ourselves.

[Ken'sPen]

fair enough,
but under a libertarian system, I'd bet it becomes the rule, and not the exception.

[Keyser Soze]

businesses can create bureaucracies as impenetrable and money-wasting as any government.corporations will build their own military if necessary.

take russia in the decade after the fall of communism,russian GDP declined 50% in five years. the elite grabbed the assets they could and shuffled them out of russia.

in 1994 alone, 600 businessmen, journalists, and politicians were murdered by gangsters. russia lacked a working road system, a banking system, anti-monopoly regulation, effective law enforcement, or any sort of safety net for the elderly and the jobless.

then the mafia took over.

today's russia is moving back toward authoritarianism under Putin. apparently, given a little freedom, many people will demand less.you'd better be careful about setting up that utopia; ten years further on it may be taken over by authoritarians.

libertarianism in its more rational form is small government conservatism, with some social reforms mixed in.

if i were to survey the so-called libertarians on this board, i would bet most of them would more likely fall into the conservative category rather than the libertarian when they consider the reality of their decisions.

[Ken'sPen]

keyser is working hard in this thread, to make me overlook his suckiness elsewhere.

[Arpikarhu]

then the public gets what it wants. if people want to be idiots i dont want to be financially responsible for saving them from themselves.

[HedCold]

i never said i was a libertarian, but ken's argument is just bad. it also puts alot more faith into the government than he has shown he actually has these days

[Keyser Soze]

because libertarian governing throws out the baby with the bathwater.our government isn't perfect but for the most part, it benefits most of society.

you are neglecting the bigger picture. when you remove the checks and balances that actually keep businesss in line, you replace one evil with another.

less government regulation brings more enron, more worldcom, etc...

i can't even imagine what would happen to the stock market.